Wildfire Series
Welcome to Wildfire, a podcast brought to you by Ember Connect. Ember Connect is a free, digital platform for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women and allies.
Wildfire Series
Episode 5 - Race, power and the Sam Kerr case with Eve Howell
In this episode we’re talking about the Sam Kerr racial harassment case with Eve Howell, the Chair of Ember Connect.
Kerr was found not guilty of racially aggravated harassment in February, following an incident in January 2023.
After a night out with her partner Kristie Mewis, Kerr vomited out of the window of their taxi home. When the taxi driver locked the door, changed direction and started driving erratically, Kerr and Mewis called the police and kicked out a window.
The driver eventually ended up at Twickenham policed station, where Kerr climbed out the broken window only to face derision and disbelief from the police when she explained what had happened.
Check out the links below to find out more, and don't miss the bodycam footage, which clearly shows the context of Kerr's "stupid and white" comment to a police officer.
Links
- Sam Kerr was arrested on night out in London. Heres's what allegedly happened
- Full arrest video released as Sam Kerr denies using whiteness as insult
- Sam Kerr was found not guilty, now the court of public opinion will have its say
- As any woman in the back of a locked taxi knows, Sam Kerr should never have been brought to court
- Victoria passes a "Sam Kerr clause"
- Ember Connect
About Wildfire
Wildfire is about sparking meaningful conversations that matter to Ember Connect’s members and allies.
This podcast creates a space to amplify voices, share stories, and explore topics that drive change, connection, and personal and professional growth.
By bringing these conversations to life, we aim to inspire action, deepen understanding, and strengthen the collective impact of the Ember Connect network.
A huge thanks to our guests for sharing their knowledge, insights, time and passion with us.
To find out more about Ember Connect, visit emberconnect.com.au or email info@emberconnect.com.au.
Ember Connect Live is a free membership community for Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander women. It’s a living and breathing meeting place where we can gather, share stories and experiences, learn, and grow.
Ember Connect Live also provides another sp
Ember Connect Live is a free membership community for Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander women. It’s a living and breathing meeting place where we can gather, share stories and experiences, learn, and grow.
Ember Connect Live also provides another space where non-Indigenous women (our Allies), can learn, grow and be part of meaningful conversations.
Our platform is unique because we provide separate spaces for Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander women and non-Indigenous women to connect and communicate but importantly, we provide a THIRD space where we can all learn and grow together.
Join Ember Connect now, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.
Ember Connect acknowledges all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander traditional custodians of country and recognises their continuing connection to land, waterways, culture and community. We pay our respects to Elders, past and present, their wisdom and knowledge that guides our journeys through life.
Speaker 2:Hiya, I'm Narelle Henry, a Noongar woman living out here in Perth in the wild wild west.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Tess Hayes and I am possibly the whitest woman in Australia, also living on Noongar country.
Speaker 2:Australia, also living on Noongar country. In this episode of Wildfire, tess and I have a yarn with our very own Eve Howe, the chair of Ember Connect. We start the conversation about Sam Kerr and how we felt about her recent charge in the UK of racially aggravated harassment. Eve then shares a personal story about how her Londoner mum met her Sudanese dad and shares some of her very own experiences and thoughts on prejudice and racism. We dive straight into the Sam Kerr conversation with Eve giving an overview of some of the different elements at play, including power and celebrity. So grab yourself a cuppa and enjoy. Don't forget there are links to the media coverage of Sam Kerr's case and the bodycam footage in the show notes.
Speaker 4:You know there was complexity of power celebrity. This happened two years ago and initially it was thrown out. So 11 months later, when Sam Kerr's name got known and she started making really big bucks, that the policeman said how upset he'd been and how it had hurt him and so on, and then they raised the case. I didn't know that. So this issue of celebrity suddenly he realised that she was somebody, so there was that part of it, and then the straight discrimination and then, of course, the power bit comes in, the fact that obviously the courts are largely run by white people and the police are mainly white. So it was just. I just thought the whole case was really interesting, that all these other elements came in and uh, and there were.
Speaker 4:There were a lot of other issues about that case that were quite, I found, extraordinary. One was that, um, you know that they talked about a lot of the reason why she lashed out like that was frustration because she wasn't taken seriously. They, they were inebriated. She and her partner were inebriated. I mean, I don't think there was any question about that.
Speaker 4:They had a big night out and they were in the taxi and Sam Kerr had been sick and it was her partner who kicked the window out after the taxi driver locked the door. There's a lot of discussion about how you feel as a woman in a taxi when the doors get locked. They called the door. There's a lot of discussion about how you feel as a woman in a taxi when the doors get locked. They called the police and when they got to the police station they said that they had called the police as well as the taxi driver called the police. That that was kind of not taken notice of. When Sam Kerr and her partner told the policeman that they'd called the police, they just sort of laughed at them and said no, you didn't.
Speaker 3:And that was the context in which she said well, you're stupid and white.
Speaker 1:That was the context. Yeah, because he had said.
Speaker 3:she said well, we called them and this is what happened. And he said no, that's not what happened, that couldn't be what happened.
Speaker 4:That couldn't be what happened, and then it was proven. That is what happened, yeah.
Speaker 3:And so she was saying in the context of you just don't, you don't understand, yeah, and he called her little Missy, yeah.
Speaker 2:Missy Moo, missy Moo. That made my skin crawl, that made my eye twitch. It suddenly just stopped. Now that we're having this, conversation.
Speaker 4:It's quite extraordinary and, yeah, when you actually hear the sort of whole thing. One of racism's central markers is power. There's discrimination and there's power and prejudice plus institutional power is the accepted basic definition of racism. So you're prejudiced but you've also got the ability to do something about your prejudice. I guess and it's quite interesting that there was something else and I can't remember exactly where I saw it was saying some of that came into the people's discussion about the voice, which was like you know, why should Aboriginal people have a say, a separate say, when we don't have a say? You know?
Speaker 2:It gets. Really, it really fatigues you seeing those things, really, um it, it really fatigues you seeing those things and um. So, yeah, when I did, I did actually make a um, a decision to switch off from this case, because I I just assumed that it wouldn't end well for sam kerr, but surprisingly I, when you said to me the other day, and again, like I said, I spent, you know, quite a number of hours trying to understand even just my own thinking and why I thought it just would be done and it just was like I think I'm a lot more cynical about the world now, particularly post-referendum. Sure, not surprising. Yeah, I'm still kind of angry about a lot of things, but always trying to figure out how to check myself. Yeah, because I don't want to become part of the problem that keeps the world divided and separate. So, but I think, you know, if we look at that, and it's such a public case yes, everybody's got a view, yeah, and very polarising views in a lot of ways, but it's a really good conversation to have.
Speaker 2:I think the outcome as well, in terms of, you know, looking at how the media, what you had just read out was talking about power and talking about discrimination and that it being two separate things. So the conversation that's happening around this, it's important. I feel like I have a bit more hope now. Yes, yeah, that there are people out there that are brave enough to have this conversation. Yes, and again, high profile case and people are going well, what are they talking about with this? And so it's really thought provoking. And if people are willing to listen to others and to really dig deep into what some of those actions are and then how they might play a role, yeah, I think it's important for people to think about it.
Speaker 2:I think I had seen a quote from somebody at Monash University to say that if it was in Australia, the case would likely have not made it to the courts, and that there have been quite a number of cases that have popped up in the UK to do with this type of thing. Yes, I thought that was quite interesting, but as a black woman, I kind of went when I heard what she said, like oh, you're just stupid and white, like I kind of gasped at that because it's like you can't say that because you're going to get nailed for it. Yeah, and I just I kind of. And then I watched the video. It kind of changed things.
Speaker 4:The circumstances were quite complicated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, particularly the cab ride. I mean, I would probably like I would be thinking I'm going to die.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, well, that's what they thought. Where are we going? They thought they were being kidnapped.
Speaker 4:She said she had that fear of remembering sort of the whole thing of the Claremont killer and things like that. Taxi drivers, yeah, yeah. And the other interesting thing was that initially because initially they weren't going to bring a case other than damages to make them pay for the taxi, the damages of the taxi, and it was actually her partner who smashed the window, but it was her who was- the guilty one. That's insane.
Speaker 2:Which is interesting yeah, it's a white partner so where's this taxi driver, I don't know, driving around somewhere with duct tape on their window?
Speaker 4:I'm sure he still didn't know. Well, they paid for all the repairs they did in the end.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my goodness.
Speaker 4:So that was all dropped, and then the police brought up the yeah, yeah, they brought up the case another year, almost a year later again, because this guy had complained now that he was upset and his life had been ruined by that.
Speaker 2:Life had been ruined Well, not quite, I'm sure that's what he. His life had been ruined, I heard, or whatever Life had been ruined.
Speaker 4:Well, not quite you know what I mean. Well, wow, I'm sure that's what he said. Yeah, so they said they'd open the case, which is pretty ridiculous really. But anyway, very interesting case, I think. As I say, it's brought out a lot of conversation, which is good, I think.
Speaker 2:Seeing what's happening in the US at the moment. If you're only looking at one particular thing and you're getting a certain narrative or you're you're identifying with a particular party or group of people, you could just adopt that point of dominant point of view in that space and not think too much about what really the actual situation is I think I've said this to you before, narelle.
Speaker 4:You know, when I came here um 40 odd years ago, I was shocked by the fact that I got treated much better than Aboriginal people. There is prejudice, almost this prejudice and this prejudice.
Speaker 3:Nuances.
Speaker 4:There's all these nuances of prejudice you know, and what to me is just, it's probably the most shocking and it's, you know, like Indigenous people in Australia or Indigenous people anywhere really, who have been dominated by somebody else in their own land, is a degree far worse than the person, than the migrant who goes to a new country. It's a huge difference and that, when you start thinking about it, is all about power, which was the power of colonisation.
Speaker 2:I know that you've spoken about that a couple of times, that you feel like you've been treated far better than Indigenous peoples here, but you also have an interesting story about your parents as well.
Speaker 4:My mother was a Londoner from sort of I think what you'd call sort of middle working class. Her father was a teacher, but then he was a tobacco. He owned a tobacconist shop, basically sold cigarettes, um, and so quite a humble family. And uh, my mother, born way back 1902, and uh, in her 30s she, um, she was still. She was the oldest child and had been the one who had to look after all the others and she started just helping out with African students who were coming to the UK, and that's how she met my father, who came from Sudan. South Sudanese is almost as black as the table Not quite, you know, this is England in the 30s, anyway. So she met him and they fell in love and and she decided she was, you know, she was going to marry him, so, but, interesting enough, her family were cool about it, no problem at all, which was very unusual in those days. So they, they fell in love.
Speaker 4:My father was, um, trying to finish his degree and he had been. You know, this is a good side of life. He was the son of ex-slaves who had been taken from the South Sudan up to the northern on the boundary with Egypt by the Arabs, who used to take slaves and then when slavery was stopped by the British colonial people, those slaves largely went into the Egyptian army. So my father's father was from the south but was up in the north working for the Egyptian army guarding the Suez Canal. My father had very little education. He was like you know. He went to elementary school. But then he got a job as a servant to a British doctor who was a very good man and recognised that the sky was quite bright and so encouraged him, taught him English, started getting him to do things to help him you know, run some of the pharmacy stuff and so encouraged him, taught him English, started getting him to do things to help him you know, run some of the pharmacy stuff and so on. Realised that he could do it.
Speaker 4:And then my father said well, you know, I could be a doctor too. So he decided he was going to be a doctor. But there was no medical school anywhere in sight and he didn't have any qualifications like secondary school or anything. So he had to sort of gradually do that. He went to Kuwait and got some sort of secondary education. Then he went to Bombay, university of Bombay and did his early first part of his medical degree Came back was still being helped by this English doctor. He ended up going to London to see what he could do in Europe to finish his degree, and I think he didn't qualify to get into London. So he went to university in Brussels, but he had to learn French. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:So he already spoke Arabic and English, and now he had to learn French.
Speaker 4:Anyway, he learned French, as you do, and he got his degree in Brussels with distinction. I've actually got his certificates, beautiful, all in French. Got his degree and, uh they, he went back to Cairo in Egypt to work at the hospital there as a doctor. And my mother then sort of said, well, what I'll do is I'm going to become a nurse. So she went to American University in Beirut in Lebanon to do a nursing degree and she chose that because she could go from Beirut to Cairo every six months or so to see her fiancé. Anyway, they did that for about three years. Then eventually she finished her nursing degree.
Speaker 4:They got married in Cairo and had the first two children in Egypt. And then, during the war, because Egypt was being bombed and of course the whole Taliban and the Aussies were there and the Germans were coming and uh anyway. So then they went down back to the sedan. Because he wanted to. His whole goal was to be a doctor for his own people. So they went back down to the sedan, initially lived in quite primitive part out of the south, the capital. I got a great photo of my my this was before I was born but my mother sitting with my sister and my brother, who was just a little toddler on a lap with this sort of straw hut behind them, which was their home. My mother said she had malaria twice, she miscarried twice, living in these circumstances, but then eventually they moved to Khartoum and he set up a practice and was a GP by the time I was born. He was pretty well established.
Speaker 3:Did your mother still work as a nurse, or was she looking after you? Once she stopped nursing, she got three children.
Speaker 4:But then sadly my father died quite young. So then she was going to left with three children in Khartoum, so she decided she might go home to family.
Speaker 2:That's infrequent fly miles.
Speaker 4:But what was interesting was and I guess perhaps that's another reason why I had some empathy with Aboriginal people Sudan was a colony until 1956, so that was when I was 11, and they had only British kids could swim in the British swimming pool. All this sort of crap went on. You know how did your mother find it moving from? Yeah and my mother? You know, my mother was a white woman. She wasn't allowed in the British club because she'd married a black man. She was contaminated, you know.
Speaker 3:I guess she was unfortunately used to that a little bit, so she knew what to expect.
Speaker 4:Well, she used to say you know, when she walked out with my father in London, every head turned sort of yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just love listening to the stories you have. I think it's nice to kind of engage with what's the experience of people throughout history, so that we try not to make the same mistakes as a people's moving forward. Yeah, but thanks for coming in and talking to us about that.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, but I, just as I say, I thought that Sam Kerr story was really interesting. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:In the sense that, like, let's go back again. Going back, I'm not going to talk about the taxi driver, but the taxi experience. Yes, you have an experience like that and you call the police with the hope and the expectation that somebody will manage that situation and investigate it so that it doesn't happen again the next time. If there's anything that happens, like that trust in terms of calling somebody to say we've been wronged, they're not likely to do it Like it's just. I was ignored last time In a traumatic event that was just completely dismissed, yeah, and then the patronising comments of you know, missy Moo, and things like that, it's just. I would feel like I wouldn't have any trust to even call in the first place after that. Yeah, interesting, so anyone got any information about the taxi driver? No, give us a call, shoot us an email at mbconnect and let us know, so that I can sleep at night and I don't have to go searching for people.
Speaker 3:Hey guys, thanks for listening. Wildfire is about sparking meaningful conversations that matter to Ember Connect's members and allies. This podcast creates a space to amplify voices, share stories and explore topics that drive change, connection and personal and professional growth. By bringing these conversations to life, we aim to inspire action, deepen understanding and strengthen the collective impact of the Ember Connect network. A huge thanks to our guests for sharing their knowledge, insights, time and passion with us, and to find out more about Ember Connect, visit emberconnectcomau.
Speaker 2:I'm still going to go. Look for the taxi driver. They're driving around, slumped in their seat. Just all you can see is the top of someone's head and a hand on the steering wheel. They're just trying to keep a low profile.
