Wildfire Series
Welcome to Wildfire, a podcast brought to you by Ember Connect. Ember Connect is a free, digital platform for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women and allies.
Wildfire Series
The Village That Raised Us
When childhood friends Katie Kiss and Liza Fraser-Gooda-McGuire sit down to yarn, something magical happens. Their conversation weaves through shared memories of growing up Aboriginal in Rockhampton – the beef capital of Australia – where racism existed alongside a profound sense of community that shaped them both.
Katie, now the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner, lost her mother at six and was raised by her non-Indigenous father with the support of an entire community. "I had many mums looking out for us, many dads looking out for us," she shares, describing how elders ensured she maintained cultural connections despite her loss. Liza, a businesswoman and foundation director, grew up watching her grandmother and other community leaders advocate for change while creating safe spaces for children to gather.
Their stories reveal the power of what they call "the village" – interconnected families who provided meals, beds, guidance, and love to all children within their community. This network enabled both women to overcome significant challenges. Katie candidly discusses becoming a mother at 17, balancing education, work, and parenting with the support of mother-in-laws who "treated me like their own daughter" regardless of relationships with their sons.
The conversation takes a profound turn when discussing current challenges. Katie's nationwide consultations reveal widespread concerns about youth justice, housing crises, and especially the intensification of racism following the 2023 Voice Referendum. Katie shares her son's heartbreaking question after the referendum: "How do I walk into that space every day knowing they all voted against me....?"
Despite these challenges, their message remains one of hope and determination. Both women feel guided by ancestors – "I feel that spirit all the time," Katie says, describing how elders reach out with support precisely when needed. Their advice centres on reclaiming resilience:
“Your resilience is yours,” Katie says. “Use it fully to reach your goals.”
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Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Narelle Henry. I'm a Noongar woman living and working over here on Noongar Country.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Tess Hayes and I am possibly the whitest woman in Australia also living on Noongar country, I've got to tell you this yarn is one of those special ones, a kind that really stays with you for a really long time. For me it was really powerful, it was heartfelt and it quite simply is a conversation about growing up on country, the strength of family and community, and how those early experiences shape the way we show up in the world today. There's wisdom here, there's laughter the kind that makes your belly ache a little bit and then there are a few quiet, emotional moments too. Honestly, it was one of those chats where you walk away feeling a little more grounded and a whole lot more inspired.
Speaker 4:Hi, my name's Katie Kiss. I'm the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner. I work at the Human Rights Commission of Australia and I was born and bred on the lands of the Dharambal people in Rockhampton. I now live in Brisbane on Quandamooka country on the bayside.
Speaker 5:Hi, I'm Liza Fraser-Gooden-Maguire. I am a proud Bidjara Gungaloo Eamon woman was born on the lands of the Dharambal Nation, now living in Wodgup Boodja, my home away from home. I am a businesswoman, a director, a co-chair and also a director in a charitable foundation.
Speaker 2:Well, we've got a bit of a bonus today, so informing your agenda for the next couple of years. You've done some massive travels around and we've also hijacked Liza's day, so thanks for joining us, liza as well. So we'll just sit and have a yarn, because I want to know all about how you know each other. So you've mentioned Rocky and Queensland, so how do you guys even know each other? Because, liza, I only met you last week.
Speaker 4:Yes, Well, I suppose Liza and I are both from Rockhampton, so I'm a Kandubiri Widi woman. My family are from North Queensland. My grandfather's country is around Bowen Basin, between Collinsville and Nebo. My grandmother's country is central Cape York around Cowan. But they got moved to Palm Island. My mother was born there.
Speaker 4:They got moved down to Rockhampton to build down to Woorabinda, actually to build the mission there when they were at the back end of World War II when they were bringing all the people from Hopevale down. So they moved all those mob from the Hopevale mission down to Woorabinda. And so they moved Pop from Palm Island to Worribinda because he had carpentry skills. So they took him down to build the houses for the people at Worribinda because the mission was fairly new at that stage, and so they were only there for about a year and then they moved into Rockhampton. So my mother was born at Palm Island.
Speaker 4:There was five of the children, five of the 11 born on Palm Island and then when they got to Rockhampton or Borabinda, uncle Winnie was born there first and then they had the next children in Rockhampton. So that's how we kind of landed in Rocky and then I was born in Rockhampton. Mum met my dad there and that's how we ended up there on Darenball Country. So. But, liza, her family was in there and she can tell you about that. But at about 10 years old, you know bingo halls and all that sort of stuff. You know our grandparents used to go to bingo. Nana Shirley and my Nana, nana Katie, was a big bingo fan. So they used to go to the bingo and all that sort of stuff and all of us kids would go there looking for money from the grandparents. So we connected as kids in the community and you know, rocky, in those days we were riding around on bikes and going to the Southside Pool every weekend and so we all connected as a community of young people and children and we've all stayed connected over the years.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean I'm a proud Bidjara Gungaloo Eman woman. So I mean the same story. My grandmother they were all in that war of intermission, nan was and Grandad were one of the first to have a first social housing. So that took them into Rockhampton and to date that 110 West Street is still quite a significant home base for all of us and that's where we grew up in being a part of the community and sitting around the table and you know watching all our grandparents lead the way in driving, you know organisational change for our community in terms of housing, legal aid and health, in terms of building that for us.
Speaker 5:So I guess our connection in, yeah, coming together and being a part of that family and you know Kate mentioned, you know one of her agendas is driving and building that village and back in those old days it was all about village and all being around each other and in our community and raising, you know strong people, strong community and maintaining that strong culture and who we are and I guess that's taken the journey of where we both sit as strong Aboriginal women. You know driving and building and advocating you know for our communities in the positions that we sit, as you know, kate being our Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander Justice, social Commissioner and I guess my part in being, you know, sitting in the different spaces, driving economic development and economic change for our people as a businesswoman, it's really interesting when Liza talks about the households in Rockhampton, because there was Rocky is made up divided by the Fitzroy River, the big brown snake, and it's on Drambool country.
Speaker 4:But Liza's family's house was on the south side of Rockhampton and my family's house was on the north side of Rockhampton and Liza talks about Nana Shirley's house being social housing. But my grandparents actually owned the first Aboriginal-owned home in Rockhampton at 252 Grub Street. So our families all grew up there and, like the Northside house, all the Northside kids would go to our family's home there. So when people were off playing cards and all that sort of stuff all the kids would come there for a feed. Nana always had a big pot of stew on the stove and loaves of bread and bottles of cordial on the table. So all the mob used to come there and they knew they had a feed. They knew they had a bed if they needed it, even though we had a big packed house. But that was the north side house and Nana Shirley's, liza's grandmother, was the south side house. But my mum and dad bought a home in South Rockhampton so we grew up on south side and so Liza's family home, or Nana Shirley's place, was the house that we hung out at and that's how we kind of grew up knowing each other and riding around and having exposure to these old people and all that sort of stuff. So yeah it was.
Speaker 4:It was a privileged childhood in that regard and we had access to strong, safe spaces where you know, if we didn't have that at home or we had to go away from home for any reason, we had those other places that we could go to.
Speaker 4:My mum passed when I was six years old and my dad's non-Indigenous, and so he had two little Aboriginal girls that he had to try and work out how to bring up in this world. And so you know, I was very privileged to have people like Nana Shirley and other elders in the Rockhampton community that looked out for me, knowing that my mum had passed. But everyone knew who we belonged to, everyone knew who the kids belonged to, who the families came from, and so they looked out for all the kids and my sister and I my little sister Kerry and I were very privileged that, even though we didn't have our mum, we had many mums looking out for us in that community, many dads looking out for us in that community, and they helped us to maintain that cultural connection too, with our mum being around us and kept us connected to our grandparents as well on the north side of Rockhampton.
Speaker 4:So we used to go down to Bingo at Scotia Place and Municipal Theatre and ride our bikes down there and Nana would come across from north side and go to the bingo and we'd all connect with her there. So we're able to maintain our connection to our community through that, even though we had mum gone and a non-Indigenous father who didn't really know how to keep us in our space properly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what was it like? I've only been to Queensland a couple of times, but in terms of, you know, rockhampton, growing up as Aboriginal girls and the beef capital of Australia, beef capital.
Speaker 5:On the topic of Capcom.
Speaker 2:What was it like for Aboriginal people in Rocky when you guys were growing up?
Speaker 4:It was interesting because there was a lot of racism around us. Like you know, we used to go to the Southside Pool every weekend and there were stories about the Ku Klux Klan being in Rockhampton at the time, and us kids would come from the pool making our way home and any time we saw a white van we'd all run for cover. We'd all go and duck into the nearest house on the street with the garden bed so we could hide behind the garden so that this white van wouldn't pick us up. I don't know to this day whether that was just our oldies trying to scare us or whether there was actually people going around picking up kids off the street, because there was a fair bit of racism in Rocky as.
Speaker 4:I mentioned the beef capital of the world. We had a lot of farmers and pastoralists and cow cockies and stuff hanging around in town, but a lot of mining mob would come into Rockhampton as well. It was a central place to move through. So I don't know whether it was a sense of the oldies trying to you know when they talk about Jundity going to get you and all that sort of stuff. I don't know whether it was that or whether there was actual cause for us to be worried about some of those practices that were going on.
Speaker 4:But you know, even to this day Rocky still has a lot of exposure to racism in that township and you know there's a lot of social issues and stuff going on there as well, but it's always been a strong community where big families moved in from places like Worribinda, like there's probably about 15 big, strong families and they all connected with each other through the mission or through those early years in Rockhampton where they were all sort of housed together and that sort of stuff, and so they all looked out for each other and they all had each other's backs and all of us kids grew up very connected and still connected to this day and that's why Liza and I sit here today as 50-year-old women but still strong in our sisterhood and you know there's never a question that if one of us needs something it's just a phone call away.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think you know there was always that sense of safety but for me, my childhood and our childhood it was.
Speaker 5:You know it's happy times and I think, as children, you know having that support network around you.
Speaker 5:You know, culturally, you know we had strong Aboriginal leaders that were driving change and building those pathways and advocating for us and you know the activism, you know with the rights of us as Indigenous people. But I think you know seeing these, you know strong role models. It gave us a pathway to ensure that you know education was a way forward for us but at the same time, pathway to ensure that you know education was a way forward for us but at the same time, that cultural identity, you know within our NAIDOC week and you know having, you know, all our organisations participate in that and seeing that sense of pride and identity. So you know, even though we had two pathways of, you know we had to walk in. You know us as Indigenous people and especially Aboriginal women. You know we had to walk in. You know us as Indigenous people and especially Aboriginal women. You know, at that stage, you know having that voice and having that place at the table and seeing our nannies being so instrumental in driving that, despite the lives they lived.
Speaker 5:Despite the lives they lived yeah, and the trauma that they had and you know coming from missions and you know being put, you know you can't go and marry this, you can't go out of that. You had to get permission for all that type of stuff. Working as domestics.
Speaker 4:Both of our grandparents were domestics.
Speaker 5:Domestics and farm. You know working on the farm with stock hands. But I think what they did is, you know, embedded in us. You know they could see the way forward for us and just having that sort of structure around us is, yeah, I think it was a happy time and I think we could run freely within the community, but knowing we had a village around us that was looking after us.
Speaker 4:And I think that's what's missing today. The village is kind of dispersed a bit and you know where. I often recall when I was pregnant with my daughter at 17 and I'm riding along on the handlebars of my partner's bike at the time and the elders would pull up beside me Get off that bike, you're going to crush that baby's head. So not my family, just elders. We didn't have the luxury of telling them to shut up and don't tell me what to do. You got cracked if you were disrespectful, you know, and I think some of that cultural stuff has broken down a little bit today and the village is not as secure and proactive as it used to be. But I think also we got drilled into us. You know the pride, like Liza says, of who we are and where we come from and don't ever lose sight of that. And you know both of our grandparents my grandfather in particular, my nana, was always the quiet achiever. She was at home looking after all the children making sure the house was looked after.
Speaker 4:She was kind, gentle, soft, but you cross her and she'll go for you. But Pop was the political activist, and so he was out with Shirley Gooder setting up the legal service and the health service and always pushed education for us. I always remember my grandfather saying to me you know, don't forget who you are and where you come from, but you have to be able to participate in their world. And so, you know, I never lost sight of that and we had those strong leaders and those strong elders, and both of them came from missions where they didn't have those opportunities. You, you know, my grandfather could barely read and write.
Speaker 4:He could read a race paper though he could read the race yeah yeah, but you know he, he used to write letters to the editor every week in the morning bulletin newspaper and, um, it's not that he wrote them. He would get auntie margaret or auntie kathy to do the writing for him, or my cousin jill, and they'd sit down and Bulletin newspaper and it's not that he wrote them. He would get Aunty Margaret or Aunty Kathy to do the writing for him, or my cousin Jill and they'd sit down and do the narrative for him and stuff. But he would be the political voice behind that. And so you know, some of us have grown up in families where you don't have an opportunity to choose what you become. They've already set the path for you and you either pick it up and run with it or you get lost along the way. And you know, I kind of feel like I've picked it up and run, but I also feel in some instances I didn't really have a choice in that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean we walk on the shoulders of giants and the ancestors and you know the old people that have built that pathway for us and I feel you know we're the messengers, we listen to the voices of our community and we go forth and change and create and build. And you know there's so much. You know brick walls and challenges and biases and perceptions and racism and discrimination that we have to. You know we're up against, but it's the resilience of who we are and it's holding onto that pride and that foundation and the foundation of our childhood and where we come from that drives that and because we've got a responsibility, we've got a cultural responsibility to keep that going. And I think, and that's important in terms of the leadership, you know not only that you drive, or us drive, that we all continue to do that.
Speaker 4:The other thing for me is I was blessed after I had my first child and my actually and my second child, my two daughters I got a job at Cape York Land Council up in Cairns, and so I moved my life from Rocky all the way up to Cairns. I'd never left Rocky before so it was, like you know, a bit of a shock. I lived in Gladstone for a couple of years but it was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to a completely different location. But I kind of felt okay because I knew that Nana's country was close up there and I was in the middle of Nana and Pop's country, you know. So I took up this job at Cape York Land Council and all of a sudden I'm immersed in my grandmother's native title claim, and so I was able to then spend a lot of time in Cape York with senior elders who were connected to my people, and even not just connected from a traditional sense but connected in a way that during those land rights movement years and the civil rights movement years, a lot of those old people from Cape York were travelling down the coastline to get to places like Sydney and Canberra to take part in the marches, and they were pulling up in Rocky along the way through, and so a lot of those old people were telling me no, we stayed at your grandparents' place. They fed us and looked after us while we were on the way through.
Speaker 4:So, like I was saying before, you know, it wasn't just a home to the people in Rockhampton, it was a home and a place where they knew they could come and have a sleep and a feed and a shower and move on to the next destination while they were fighting for the rights of our people. And so it was a real blessing for me to be placed up in that landscape where not only was I being connected to my own traditional people, my own grandmother's country and the families that I needed to be connected to, but I also was connecting to senior elders, senior Aboriginal people in those communities that had connected with my grandparents on the way through as part of their journey. That's amazing, it's. It's kind of like I, we, you know, we know how ancestors work. Right, they put us in places where we need to be and I just I look back on my life and I think, oh my gosh, I've just been given so many opportunities and so many I've been put in spaces where you just can't even dream that stuff, it just happens.
Speaker 5:But I think you know not only that, you know, imagine losing your mother and being in that sort of trauma, but it also comes back to your drive and wanting to do that. You know you mentioned your time in Cape York and you know, working at that land council. You know, at that time Kate was a single mother, so she had three young babies. So she'd work full time, work full time during the day, brought her own home, her first home. But also, you know, put those babies in daycare early in the morning, get them in the afternoon do what she had to do, but then at night she'd be doing, you know, doing her degree to all hours in the morning and then up again. It was, you know, that competitive.
Speaker 5:you know that revival and that resilience and that determination you know to get that degree, with so many things against us as Aboriginal women back in those days. Because when you look at that, it was a statistic that we didn't even finish our education at year 12. And then Kate doing high school, finishing school Seven months pregnant, seven months pregnant, so still going through that, finishing high school and then heading up to Cairns and then finding that full-time employment connecting to her grandmother's country and then working in that landscape with the Noel Pearsons and those that were really driving that Indigenous conversation and putting us on that map of national justice and fighting for that. But then going home being a single mother and then going through a lot of other traumas through our life but then studying. You know how incredible as a young 20, you know early 20s fighting that and driving that space.
Speaker 4:But again, I had that strong village around me again, even all the way through that, right Like, liza was there with me in Cairns, because she actually moved to Cairns first and I followed her. But she's ringing me up going, barb, you've got to come up here. And it's like oh, go on then. So, anyway, I ended up up in.
Speaker 4:Cairns. But even in that we had each other's back. You know we were a support mechanism for each other in the next part of our journey along the way. But I had this strong village around me still, like I've come from this space in Rockhampton to a space where I was going oh how am I going to do this with these two little girls. And then I had my son up there while I was in Cairns and you know I'm sitting there and I've got my sister there my brother, duga, came up and moved up there with us as well and he was connected to Liza's family at the time. So he ended up moving in with us.
Speaker 4:Gay man, no relationship, but loved our children like his own, you know. So I had and I had friends that I'd met while I'd moved to Cairns. I never knew these people from a bar of soap before I got to Cairns. So all of a sudden I've got this network of young women and young men around me that became role models and carers for my children. I was travelling all through Cape York. I had to actually stall my degree for a bit because of the travel that I was doing with the Land Council, but Liza and Duggar would share helping with the kids. My sister would help with the kids. My friends that I worked with would look after my children while I had to travel or study or you know. And when I started working in the Human Rights Commission, I had these people going. You just go and do what you need to do in New York. We've got the kids, it's all good.
Speaker 4:I just had all these people around me all the time that have helped me grow and do what I needed to do. And I really want to acknowledge at this point, when I think about that village, when I had my first daughter In Rockhampton, I have had the most amazing mother-in-laws. So go back a little bit. When I was about 12, we ended up in foster care. So me and my little sister ended up in a foster home with Liza's auntie and you know dad was struggling with bringing up two little girls and he was a bricklayer so Aussie ochre man of all mans, you know and so he really struggled with that and we've got a good relationship now. But we ended up in foster home and he wasn't very happy about that. So we struggled all through that. We ended up in a foster home with. Our foster mother was my education liaison officer at the time at the school, so she also knew who I belonged to, who my family was, made sure we stayed connected to the family and all that sort of stuff. But then I get to who my family was, made sure we stayed connected to the family and all that sort of stuff. But then I get Harriet, who's my foster mum, and then I end up in my relationship with my daughter's father and I had the two most amazing mother-in-laws, so my first daughter's grandmother she would whatever I needed. Like my daughter went into family daycare throughout the day. If I couldn't be there to pick her up, joanie was there to pick her up On the weekends. Friday afternoon I'd get home on the bus with the pram and the bag and my handbag and everything you know.
Speaker 4:I was about 18 years old, working in a traineeship, living in social housing in what we called Sin City in Rockhampton, and Joanie would be in my driveway waiting to pick Letitia up for the weekend. Joanie would be in my driveway waiting to pick Letitia up for the weekend. She just adored her granddaughter, and so Letitia's grown up having this beautiful, strong Aboriginal grandmother, who also loved her and nurtured her right but also gave me the space I needed as a young woman to do the things that I needed to do as a young woman as well and just be a young person, even though I had this child that I was now responsible for, and she is the reason why I am where I am today, because if it wasn't for that baby being born, I probably would have run amok and gone right. You know, I'm going to live my life the way I want to live it, but I had this child now that I was responsible for and I made a choice to keep her and it was like, well, I have to give her everything I possibly can. So Joanie backed me in on that and really helped me to make sure that I could do what I needed to do and have space. But also she was playing that cultural role of being that baby's grandmother and she just adored her.
Speaker 4:And then I had my second daughter and my next mother-in-law, and both of these women stayed in my life no matter what happened with their sons, stayed in my life and treated me like their own daughter. And you know, I went to university. I had Jewel, who would come to Sydney to babysit my three children so that I could go and work and do my things in New York and study and all that sort of stuff. She you know, only one of those children were her grandchildren, but they looked after the three of my children like their own babies and they loved them like their own baby. So I've just had these amazing, amazing, beautiful, strong Aboriginal people in my life that were my village and my network and my foundation, and I wouldn't be sitting here today without them, and I wouldn't be sitting here today without them.
Speaker 2:Well, that answers the question I was going to ask you and how you could possibly do anything as a single mum with three kids. Because I've got help, I got a lot of help, I got a partner who's super, but I can't even have a shower by myself with two kids. Well, my first one was my shadow.
Speaker 4:She come and did everything with me, and so she was with me for 18 months by herself. But she's now the one that cleans everything and has got everything in order and is organized and all that sort of stuff, because she just followed me around as the little shadow. So you know, in those days when she was first born, she actually went down the stairs in a walkie because she, um, was following me and I was scrubbing the bathroom sink, the bathroom bathtub. She went straight down the stairs in the walker. I thought, oh my god, this baby's going to be dead. And I went out to check her. She's upside down with her legs swinging in the breeze and it was like, yeah, hello, mum Again again. Can you turn me up the right?
Speaker 4:way yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3:How much do you think that growing up with just that sense of community and that knowledge that you have that community around you has influenced both of you in the work that you've been doing, and especially, I suppose, you, commissioner, with the tours that you're doing at the moment and chatting to people around the country?
Speaker 4:I think the lived experience is so critical to being able to undertake these roles and I don't think any Aboriginal person can come into this role without lived experience. Like you know, you might have had the best life and all of that sort of stuff, but you still bring lived experience to those conversations. But I think the lived experience that I've had touches on so many of the issues that our people still face today and I think I'm able to bring the experience that I've had but also how I've responded to some of that, and that's why I think my focus around the agenda is looking at how do we rebuild that village, because I was so privileged in the village that I had around me, even though most of it was concerned with trauma, most of it was concerned with loss, most of it was concerned with trying to reconnect to country, but I had this village that facilitated all that and I put faith in the old people that they were putting me where I needed to be. And so I think, when I think about some of those times and you know I contemplated suicide back in those days, you know I was dealing with so much stuff it was like I don't think I can continue to do this. So I know what it feels like to be sitting there having those thoughts. I know what it feels like when you're in relationships that are not going the way you want them to go. You love that person with all your heart, but you're struggling with so many things. How do you deal with that on a day-to-day basis and hold your relationship together, especially while you're trying to raise children?
Speaker 4:And you know, both of us were committed to that little girl. We loved her with all our heart. Both of us were committed to that little girl. We loved her with all our heart. We loved each other with all our heart, but we were dealing with so much as young people. We didn't have the support around us to actually deal with those things. We had a big support, but not the thing, the support that we needed at that time.
Speaker 4:And so I look at all the things that we've got today like, um, the programs and stuff that are in place, and I think to myself, okay, what? What would have happened if I had that? What would have happened if you know? Or how can we actually make sure that we're using those programs to the best of our ability? Because back when I was experiencing that we didn't have that, but how do we make sure that they're working appropriately for our people? So I think having those experiences helps me to really understand what the experience of that feels like, but also then thinking about how do you link that with the policy response or the program response or making sure that our people are trying to access those in a way that actually is beneficial to them rather than harmful to them.
Speaker 5:From my point of view. You know you've got, you know, thank God we've got these amazing leaders that are out there advocating from a policy perspective and changing legislation and driving conversation in the government space. You know, when you look at the government system and where it is, it's such, it's like a beast. I mean, how do we break down those walls and create those pathways in to have a voice and get listened?
Speaker 5:I come from a business point of view and, being a businesswoman, you know working on the ground and driving economic change and you know creating employment for our people to go in spaces that don't have a presence because we're put into a box. So how do we, you know, look at that landscape of changing that and creating those pathways? So that's my space, but having the conversations as communities and being on ground. So through the foundation and the sphere, you know the sphere foundation and the community impact programs that we drive there for our elders and young women in the justice space and for our young children. It's about. You know, we've got our leaders that are doing that and advocating and doing that policy work. But we've all got to work together in synergy and we've got to come from that community and groundwork, and I think that's where you know we make that impact change as well. So it's driving that community space and delivering that.
Speaker 2:So we've. We're in 2025 and you know you talk about growing up in Rockhampton. I think about my, my nana's holding banners up. When I was younger and being too young to really I didn't engage in the conversation. I listened a lot to dad. Dad tried to involve me in a lot of conversations and subtly push me in a direction to really start to understand the way the world works. But yeah, where we are now, so where you've grown up and what you've experienced then what family experience and community experience to now, 2025, what are your thoughts on how far things have come and the work to do now?
Speaker 4:I think we're in a much harder space today. I think, even though at that time our old people were still living under the Act. In some of those communities you know, like in Rockhampton, the Act was still in place in 1978. I was four years old. People were still living under curfew at Wollabinda in 1978.
Speaker 4:So I think, while they had such a harder life, the fact that we've got all of these policies and programs and funding and, you know, systems and tools that we've got at our disposal, the fact that we're still feeling the pushback from government to take those things up, is the frustrating part and it frustrates us being able to realise our rights. So, for example, when we think about the Closing the Gap space, for example, the Closing the Gap policy, you know we have 19 targets that all reflect a human rights violation and we then have tools available to us, like the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, that enable us to respond to those human rights violations in a way that delivers and realises our rights. But then you have governments, on the other hand, who commit to these targets and say, yes, we're going to commit to reducing the amount of children going into youth detention, for example, but then we have adult crime, adult time legislation that goes in in Queensland that completely contradicts the target that people have committed to. It puts children in jail rather than takes them out of jail, which is what the target's trying to achieve. And so when you've got governments that are opposing human rights or hostile to human rights, they purposefully withdraw their support for human rights protections or go to even the point of suspending human rights protections in order to admit those policies and practices, we've got some issues to deal with.
Speaker 4:And so I think the advocacy and stuff that happened back in those early years, with our leadership, marching the streets and conducting political advocacy on, you know, through our civil rights marches and all that sort of stuff, got much more of a better outcome these years that we're in now. We've spent a lot of energy trying to engage in partnership with governments, but the partnership seems to be only going one way in most areas. And so, you know, I think the biggest sort of challenge we have at this point is embedding human rights in the Australian legal framework, because at the moment, those protections can just be set aside when it's convenient for governments.
Speaker 2:And the words, just the words human rights, and then you look at suspending human rights. That's jarring, yeah, I mean that's?
Speaker 4:It's like a switch. They turn it on and off when it's convenient. And we don't have any.
Speaker 4:National Human Rights Act in place. So there's no federal protection or federal requirement for states and territories who have responsibility for service delivery to comply with those human rights when they're implementing those policies and practices. So you know, there's still a lot of work to do in terms of encouraging government at the federal level to put in place those national protections and those national standards to comply with human rights, but making sure that states and territories in their service delivery. You know you don't just sign the closing the gap targets, just to kind of tick the box to say, yep, we agree with those targets, we want to look good, and then you go and put policies in place that completely contradict them and cause harm. And you know those areas that we're talking about, the biggest disproportionate impact is on the smallest part of the population and the part of the population that experiences oppression and discrimination at the greatest levels and nobody's responding to that.
Speaker 4:I reflect on the 2023 referendum voice referendum and I'm kind of feeling that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have been experiencing racism for so long. It just became normalised to us. We just got on with it, we just went. Oh yeah, here we go again. We're getting followed around in the shopping centre or, oh yeah, the police are following us down the street, you know, oh yeah, we're getting pulled up and asked for our ID for no particular reason at all. But since the referendum, that experience of racism has become so much more emboldened and heightened and different, and we're seeing racial hatred on a daily basis on social media platforms, but at the same time, we're seeing an invisibility in the national public debate about racism. So, while there are international conflicts playing out that are raising the profile of racism for those particular communities in our national landscape in Australia, the racism that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are experiencing every single day in this place is invisible. It's being ignored, and the only people that are acknowledging that it exists is us.
Speaker 2:I think there is an undertone of racism that existed in the country. But then there was a definitive sort of point where you just knew and I can't particularly describe it, but the end result was for me and my two little ones. I'm going into public spaces now calculating the risk to me and my daughters. There was a level of anxiety for me where I'm starting to like I'm doing the math.
Speaker 4:I think Narelle also.
Speaker 4:We probably did that unconsciously previously and not to the extent where we were so conscious that it's something we're measuring before we walk out the door every day. But even myself, you'll see a lot of the promotional material around the informing, the agenda stuff and that, and I've got shirts on that have Aboriginal prints and that on it, like if I'm going to deliver in a mainstream place or I've got to walk into a mainstream landscape. I actually consider what I have to wear that day because I'm like, okay, if I wear that, am I going to draw racism? Am I going to draw abuse? Am I going to draw hatred? So I even consider what I'm going to wear that day because I don't even feel free to wear things that make me feel good about myself anymore, and I think that's telling about where we are in the community and in the society in which we live at the moment.
Speaker 4:I think the other thing is there's a systemic and an institutional undertone here in this. And you know, while we're talking about the experience and exposure of racism as individuals in our communities in which we live and we should be able to feel safe in that and we talk about community safety every day, but we're not talking about the safety that Aboriginal people are not getting the right to. But how do we, you know, make sure that, when we walk out in the world, the systems and the institutions that are meant to protect us from that racism are actually doing what they're supposed to be doing, and at the moment they're not?
Speaker 2:I have a look at what scenarios look like before I even leave the house. I mean, I'm already trying to figure out what I need to interrupt or intercept. I'm scanning for the prejudice that might come up in the day, and that's not just necessarily what we're wearing. It's about how much of our identity we're allowed to show without drawing racism or judgment.
Speaker 4:And even as a commissioner, in a role where I feel empowered every day to be able to walk out in the world in confidence, like even you talk about your children. The week after the referendum, when we were all kind of trying to take a break from the impact of that vote, I don't think mainstream Australia actually understands what the impact of that was on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. And.
Speaker 4:I have faith and I try to hope that the majority of Australians do care about us as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I think the misinformation and disinformation that was out there was really damaging and helped inform what that vote response was. But two days after, or three days after the vote happened, you know, we were all having to go back into our jobs and back into our spaces of work, and I've talked to my son about sharing this story and he's given me permission to do that. But I've come home from work, he's been trying to ring me throughout the day. I couldn't take the calls because I was in meetings and so when I got home I rang him back and I said what's going on? And he said Mum, I don't know how to do this. And I said what do you mean? He said I work in a non-Indigenous organisation. How do I walk into that space every day knowing that probably they all voted against me, even existing?
Speaker 4:And this is my son, the son of the social justice commissioner, ringing me, a boy who's had that strong foundation and everything, and telling me that he doesn't know how to walk in the world anymore because he doesn't know who accepts him or who is happy for him to be there or not, and he had a baby coming. He's got a little boy now who's just turned one. I've got to go home tonight for his birthday party. But I said to my boy what happened with me when I had you fellas is now where you're sitting. You don't have the luxury of sitting down and ignoring what the world is throwing at you, because you now have a baby that you have to prepare to walk in this world, and so you don't have the luxury to sit down and roll over here. You've got to get up.
Speaker 2:I feel so fortunate to be able to have these types of conversations I mean, there's so much learning that I get to be a part of just listening to these yarns and that's also why we've taken so much time to create the space at Ember Connect is because we want women to be able to show up in all of their magnificence, Like the work that you do. I just think you have got to have 500 elders and ancestors walking with you because it's such a massive, massive job. There's lots of things happening around the world at the moment that are just exhausting. So I think the weight and the responsibility and the strength that it takes is extraordinary and there's no doubt that you have that. And I know that you're not just carrying your own story. I know that you're carrying so many stories with you and they're the voices of our mob.
Speaker 4:I feel the ancestors with me. I feel that spirit all the time. And it's funny because when I do feel down or feel like I'm struggling with the load that we carry and it's not just me, it's all of us carry that load but being the front face of that in the public sort of political space and in a position where people rely on me to try to make change, that lifts them out of the circumstances that they're in. It's funny because when I do feel that weight or when I do feel the heaviness, or when I'm not coping and don't get me wrong I'll go home and cry Like we had a circumstance last night. I just went home, I had to just cry, but I get the phone call.
Speaker 4:My auntie, my mum's sister, rings me out of the blue. Hey, bub, just checking in. It's almost like they know when it's the right time to ring. You know, or I'll get a message from Aunty Bonnie Robertson. It's funny because I'll be feeling this pressure and all of a sudden the phone will beep and I open the thing up and I get this big, beautiful message from Aunty Bonnie or Aunty Jackie Huggins or Mikura. You know, like they just come at the right time. It's like the old people have put me in their thoughts and all of a sudden I'm getting these beautiful messages of support, of love, of backing. You're doing the right thing, bub. Keep going, we're with you, you know. So it's just amazing how most non-Indigenous people listening to this won't even understand this, but just how influential and how great that spirit is in our culture and they're just always with us and I never question that.
Speaker 3:I might be knowing my tears.
Speaker 2:No, I'm trying not to sniff in the microphone I know I was doing that too, Sorry.
Speaker 3:Just like as a Wajula, you know, it's a privilege to sit back and just listen to you guys talk but it's heartbreaking you know, like knowing, that yeah, that there are a lot of people out there in my community who, for whatever reason, through ignorance or just privilege just couldn't see what it meant to vote. No, you know.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but they also. You know, I get that, but I also think the campaigns were so strong, yeah, and so there was a lot of Australians on the fence that didn't know how to vote, definitely, and when, you know, even our own people were not necessarily agreeing with where the referendum went. Our non-indigenous allies, or people that were keen to do the right thing, didn't know which way to. So, you know, I think, as we move forward on this, we have to take responsibility for giving them the guidance they need and not letting them succumb to the noise that's happening in the background. They're seeking guidance from us, but we've done so much work towards this, so much work. We've had generations of people working on this. For it to fall over the way it did was devastating for so many aboriginal and non-aboriginal people and torres strait islander people. But got to keep going. And you know when I go around the country narelle, you asked me about my, my tour you know I've. I've done most states and territories now, um, I'm just finishing here in perth for wa. I've got northern territory in tasmania to do and the torres stra.
Speaker 4:So as I move around the country, I get people that come into the room and they want to vent and express their frustration with the world that they're currently living in and the hurt and the harm that they're exposed to. But by the time they leave that room they're ready to go again. And I'm not saying that's because of me. I'm saying that's because of our collective spirit when we come into those places and those spaces and we lift each other and we know that we've got each other's back. And how do we bring our communities back together in the way that we talked about earlier when our old people were leading those conversations? How do we bring that cultural authority back to the table? How do we bring the senior eldership that I get text messages from that support me and help me take the next step every day?
Speaker 4:You know, I think we've got to rebuild our villages and we can only do that by coming together and having these conversations, not running each other down, not challenging each other on the front page of the Australian newspaper, not undermining the agenda and the priorities that we're all trying to work towards. And if you don't agree with them, fine, yeah, come and have that conversation with us. Don't put our dirty laundry out there for everyone else to use it against us. So I think, you know, we've got a bit of work to do around rebuilding our villages and we've got to have and create the spaces for us to do that. And that's what I found in our sessions, in our consults, in the informing the agenda, as much as it's about trying to give me some insight into the priorities that people feel like need to be taken forward. For me it's creating spaces for our people to come together and talk about their exposure and experience and lifting each other out of that.
Speaker 2:And I think, any opportunity where we're able to, if anyone's coming to speak about the things that are hurting and harming in a really, really safe place, with somebody that really cares and has the power to move that voice on, I mean, that's really healing in itself, I think.
Speaker 4:I don't know how much power I've got Narelle, but I'm trying.
Speaker 2:But I think, just your authenticity with taking care that you've got going through across the country and, as I said earlier, my eyeballs would be hanging out. Mine are Even all the things that you've got. But, yeah, I think that sense of coming together and then collective that you talked about and that energy, there's some healing in that, I think too. Is there anything that surprised you about the conversations that you've had around the country?
Speaker 4:Not really Youth. Justice has been something that has been raised in every single community and you know, no matter how much we engage, no matter how much we try to put evidence before governments and stuff like that, we're not getting the response we need, and so we've got to work around that. And part of that is the human rights protections, because they're able to oppress and deny those human rights at the stroke of a pen. The second thing that's coming out is the exposure to racism and, no surprise again, the second thing that's coming out is the exposure to racism and no surprise again.
Speaker 4:Except, as I said before, I'm starting to see a different level of exposure and a different reaction and response from our people. In that, as I said earlier, I kind of feel like in the lead-up to the referendum or the years before, we just got up every day and dealt with racism because we've been exposed to it for so long, it's become normalized so we just knew what to do with it. But now, because it's so emboldened and so blatant and so in our faces, even though the rest of the world chooses to not see it, um, our people are dealing with it in a very different way and they're exposed to harm that I don't think we've experienced up until this point. So there's's that. But then there's all the other things, like you know the closing the gap stuff, the lack of trust in government, the need for transformative change in the government systems, systemic reform, but also things like housing.
Speaker 4:There's a housing crisis in this country. Our people are not immune to that. It's a little bit hidden in some communities because our caring cultural perspectives mean that. Well, like Liza and I grew up in Rockhampton, where there was a lot of homelessness or Aboriginal people sleeping on the streets In some of these communities that I've been to, particularly over this side. People care for their people, so they're not necessarily on the street, they're couch surfing. But it also means that we've got overcrowded homes where children and young people are being exposed to rheumatic heart disease, for example, because we've got so many people living in the same space, you can't keep the place clean, you can't keep the hygiene in the space, you can't keep the germs away. Covid spreads through our homes, like you wouldn't believe, because there's so many of us needing to be accommodated, so there's so many of us needing to be accommodated. So there's those kind of challenges, probably the other thing that I've heard, which is one surprise. Actually, everything else is pretty general and expected.
Speaker 4:But when I went through New South Wales we went to a little place called Ningin and it's a tiny little community but they're experiencing an uptick in the exposure to cancer and that community in particular. A lot of the people are working in pastoral industry or on farming properties exposure to runoff from pesticides, but also skin cancers and stuff like that. So Ningen is there. They've got no permanent doctors in the township, so they've got to wait for doctors to come in. They've got no access to specialist services, so the ability to diagnose is not there early enough and so by the time they get diagnosed and stuff like that, it's too late.
Speaker 4:Then we go to Moree completely different town, you know, a big township, lots of services, lots of access, 100 Aboriginal deaths to cancer in 12 months, and so that's been a bit concerning, and the Moree community have been trying to raise that for a little while as well and not necessarily getting any response to that. So that's something that I do really want to follow up on and look into because, yeah, I'm not sure what is causing that uptick. And you know, we also know through the evidence that things like racism and stress and trauma and harm cause sickness in our bodies and in our minds. So is these uptick in cancer that our people are experiencing a result of the harm that we're exposed to every day?
Speaker 2:It's also going to affect whether or not you're going to walk into a place and seek help when you need to. It's like an Erin Brockovich movie and it's right on our doorstep with our own people.
Speaker 4:And you know the Ningen example isn't just Aboriginal people either it's. You know these communities have been dealing with contaminated water and stuff like that for generations. But the almighty dollar rules the roost.
Speaker 2:All right, Unfortunately we're out of time and I know you've got a flight to catch and we've packed a whole lot into this yarn. But before you go, if you could tell the women of the Ember Connect Network anything at all, what would it be? I mean no pressure, you don't need a final mic drop moment of the series, but if there's one thing that you would want them to hear or remember or carry with them, what would it be?
Speaker 4:I think where I want to go with that question is more around being a young mum and having a baby at 17 and just not allowing things like that and stuff that comes with that too. You know, like Liza alluded to, there was a lot of other trauma and stuff that I was experiencing during those early years, but not letting it define you, I think, as young women, and I hate the word resilience I don't like the word resilience and stuff that I was experiencing during those early years, but not letting it define you, I think, as young women, and I hate the word resilience. I don't like the word resilience because I feel like governments rely on us being resilient in order to abrogate their responsibilities. We are resilient because we have had to be resilient, we've had no choice in that, but our resilience is ours to rely on, to step up and do what we need to do in our lives, and I think that is the point for me that I want to share with our young women out there today, and our older women too.
Speaker 4:Your resilience is not anybody else's, it's yours. Take full advantage of your resilience to get the achievement of the goals that you set for yourself and don't let anybody else tell you that you can't, and don't let anything that is set to hold you back. Hold you back. Do what you need to do. There's plenty of people out there willing to support you and I had that experience firsthand. So draw on it. Don't be shamed to ask for help. I don't know. Liza, I love it.
Speaker 5:I mean, it's exactly the same, sister, what you said. I think you know staying true to yourself, being connected to your family, your community, to your elders, keeping true to your culture, but also, you know, knowing your dreams and your goals. But I always used to think, if it is to be, it's up to me.
Speaker 4:So you go and create that pathway and find that journey and live your dream yeah and personally you know, once again I've walked away from this young, having benefited in ways that I just wouldn't expect it's been enlightening, it's grounding, and it's always so full of wisdom to be speaking to amazing women like you both.
Speaker 2:so thank you so much and I'm sure, like so many other women listening, I'm inspired to keep going and stay connected and to keep tuning up for things that matter.
Speaker 4:You too, and thank you for Ember Connect for you know, raising the voices of First Nations women, and for backing us in, and it's all about supporting each other right. So thank you to Ember Connect as well. Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2:I get really mushy and emotional at times like this when I have to say goodbye. So I know I'm not the only one sending love and light with you both as you travel and continue this important work. I mean, you're both carrying so much strength and grace and we're all walking beside you. In spirit, ember Connect mob will be cheering, cheering you on from afar, and we'll be really looking forward to keeping up with your journey as they both unfold. So love you guys. Biggest mob.
Speaker 3:Hey guys, thanks for listening. Wildfire is about sparking meaningful conversations that matter to Ember Connects members and allies. This podcast creates a space to amplify voices, share stories and explore topics that drive change, connection and personal and professional growth. By bringing these conversations to life, we aim to inspire action, deepen understanding and strengthen the collective impact of the Ember Connect network. A huge thanks to our guests for sharing their knowledge, insights, time and passion with us, and to find out more about Ember Connect, visit emberconnectcomau.
Speaker 2:I'm still going to go. Look for the taxi driver. They're driving around, slumped in their seat. Just all you can see is the top of someone's head and a hand on the steering wheel. They're just trying to keep a low profile.
