Wildfire Series
Welcome to Wildfire, a podcast brought to you by Ember Connect. Ember Connect is a free, digital platform for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women and allies.
Wildfire Series
The Heartbeat of Australia: Sam Murray on Caring for Country
Sam Murray, CEO of the Indigenous Desert Alliance, brings a powerful blend of desert wisdom and modern leadership to her role in protecting one-third of Australia's landscape. As a Yilka/Wongutha/Nyoongar woman who grew up in Cosmo Newberry, Sam's connection to country runs deep, informing every aspect of her work supporting ranger groups across 2.7 million square kilometres of arid lands.
What makes Sam's leadership journey fascinating is how she draws strength from her experience as a single mother raising two independent daughters. The decision-making capabilities she developed as a parent have translated directly into her ability to lead a complex organization. Yet she still brings that nurturing "desert mum" energy to her team, balancing care with the broader perspective required of a CEO.
Throughout our conversation, Sam highlights the critical environmental work being done in Australia's desert regions. Rangers are protecting unique wildlife, such as the elusive marsupial mole and the rare night parrot, while battling invasive species and adapting to increasingly harsh climate impacts. What becomes clear is the profound irony that desert communities face the most severe consequences of climate change despite contributing minimally to its causes.
Perhaps most inspiring is Sam's philosophy on environmental stewardship. Rather than becoming paralyzed by overwhelming challenges, she advocates for focused, purposeful action on what's within our control. "Desert mob are out there every day," she explains, tackling one small area at a time with unwavering commitment. This approach offers wisdom for anyone feeling helpless about environmental protection – focus on what you can do, celebrate small wins, and keep moving forward.
Sam also extends a beautiful invitation to non-Indigenous people seeking deeper connection with country. By slowing down to notice nature even in urban settings, learning about traditional owners, and developing relationships with specific places, anyone can begin to understand the profound connection Aboriginal people maintain with their country.
Ready to support Indigenous-led conservation? Learn more about the crucial work of desert rangers and find ways to contribute to protecting Australia's heart and soul – the magnificent desert landscapes that hold ancient knowledge and extraordinary biodiversity.
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Ember Connect acknowledges all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander traditional custodians of country and recognises their continuing connection to land, waterways, culture and community. We pay our respects to Elders, past and present, their wisdom and knowledge that guides our journeys through life.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Narelle Henry. I'm a Noongar woman living and working over here on Noongar Country. Today's guest is someone who brings a rare and powerful mix of leadership and laughter and deep integrity and passion to every space she enters. Sam Murray is one of those people who doesn't just do remarkable work, she carries it with grace, with purpose and the funniest sense of humour. Now, every time Sam speaks I learn something new, not just about the world, but how to show up for it in my little patch. She's generous with her knowledge, she's grounded in who she is and she really leads with a quiet strength that pulls people together in the best kind of way. Her passion's contagious, her humility is completely disarming and her ability to tell a yarn and a story is deadly so. Whether she's making you laugh till you cry or she's reflecting with some fierce honesty, sam holds it all with care, and I can't tell you you're going to love Sam as much as I do after you have a yarn with you. So here is the one. And'm Sam Murray.
Speaker 4:I'm a Yolka Wangathalini person. I am from the Great Victorian Desert. Cosmo Nuri community is my country, and I'm also the CEO of Indigenous Desert Alliance.
Speaker 3:G'day. I'm Luke. I'm the Communications Manager at the Indigenous Desert Alliance. Sam, I first met you last year and you've been dodging me for a while, but I finally got a hold of you this year.
Speaker 2:I'm Luke. I'm the Communications Manager at the Indigenous Desert Alliance. Sam, I first met you last year and you've been dodging me for a while, but I finally got a hold of you this year in Melbourne thanks to BHP, and now we've managed to capture you and you cannot escape the podcast. I think you should be doing one yourself every month, but thank you for joining us, thanks.
Speaker 4:Sam, I'm very excited, also very nervous. This is actually my first podcast in my life, surprisingly, so I'm really happy to be here and have a good yarn. And I know I was dodging you last year to come and have a yarn and this year I couldn't dodge you, so I thought I'd better come along and have a yarn up.
Speaker 2:Tell us about moving into the CEO space of the Indigenous Desert Alliance.
Speaker 4:Yeah, this week has been the full year as CEO, after what I'd call a corporate and cultural apprenticeship for a few years, so I'm really happy to be here. I've brought my mullin, my little brother, who's also a commerce manager he does have a job at IDA as well to come along and have a bit of a yarn, because he's part of my journey for how I've been able to get stronger at talking up as well. He seems always dodging me.
Speaker 3:He's moving away from me.
Speaker 2:He's done well to get a hint. So Luke's been trying to get you to do this for a while, right For a long time.
Speaker 4:Yes, his KPI, I think, for himself is getting me on TV On the project, on the project. But they shut now, so we've got to find somebody else off the hook.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe you could just create your own, because I think you can do your own show, purely because, like, I think you're an amazing communicator. Watching you again in Melbourne communicate not just about the Desert Alliance, but yourself and what your values are, I was sitting back and I'm always that person that's like, oh my God, I just love you and I admire you so much. Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4:That's very kind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're amazing. So tell us about the last year in terms of that journey, moving into the CEO role.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it was a lot of learning. Like you know, there were some hard times, some high times and good times. A lot of learning about myself times, a lot of learning about myself. I think I really didn't realise how much of being, you know, a black Aboriginal mum, single mum I'm a single mum of two girls how much that I'd actually roll into my job. I knew I'd be a strong, you know driver of who I am, but it's amazing how I've just folded into how I raised my two girls in a way, so I think that took me by surprise.
Speaker 2:How much so, yeah, and I'm sure they look at you with admiration as well. Well, I don't know about that.
Speaker 4:They're also smartasses like me and incredibly sarcastic, and I just said to Luke, when I was coming along, my youngest one she's the worst, extremely street smart and an old soul. She's like what are you going to talk about? They're probably sick of you talking about desert, so they don't think I'm actually anything too amazing. They're used to me in a way, so they were just yeah, they're always proud in a way, but enough to be very cheeky and keep me in my toes, which is good.
Speaker 2:Well, this suburban mongar wants to know more about the desert so you can tell your girls that, yeah. So I'm always interested in the learning journey for women and I just can't believe you're a single mum Like, firstly, you're a superhero, but to now be a CEO and in your first year, what's been the biggest lesson?
Speaker 4:I think the biggest lesson was it's funny when there were people outside of my mentor, the previous CEO, who made the space for me. There's a lot of that yarn going around that I heard from people saying like you've got to be prepared for it's lonely at the top and there's quite a lot of stereotype advice that you get given in this role and a lot of it's you know. Quite true, but I actually realised a lot of that actually didn't impact me because being a single mum for a very long time and raising my girls, being alone and making those tough decisions that people say people can't do in that role, I actually find that quite relatively easy because as a single mum with two girls, you know your two most precious things in the world making decisions and being aligned in those decisions are something I'm very comfortable as a single parent. So you know a lot of mums are out there. That's something that you know. They have to make the calls. They can't talk to someone else to kind of make those calls. So that was actually easy for me in a way Not easy, still hard to do but it wasn't something I had to really learn. I think the I care too much, like all mums. You know a bit of a desert mum can grow around with love to the team and all that and I recognise that I would burn myself out if I cared. You know too much as much in the depth that I have and in some way recognising how that could take a lot of my energy. And as a CEO you do have to look at the bigger picture above, still care and support your team. But I found that I would be burnt out if I was to give that real mum focus and energy on every single of her 30-odd staff. So learning how to distance in a way but keep that heart was really something I had to balance and I think probably it might take me the rest of my career to get that balance right.
Speaker 4:Things like I'm pretty good at learning, I think I wouldn't be where I am now. Coming from Closmer and Laverton, you know a long way and being where I am now you know and I'm very privileged to be where I am now you know and I'm very privileged to be where I am. That's what I am. But learning, I think that's something that really I'm glad that I know how to learn well and the responsibility I really didn't realise I was prepared for the responsibility but the overwhelming responsibility for my desert mob and realising when I've gone to places and travelled around overseas and around Australia, a lot of times I'm the only woman in the room as a CEO. A lot of times I'm the only Aboriginal person in the room. A lot of times I'm the only one that's under 50 in the room and the only one who isn't a doctor or I've never went to university.
Speaker 4:I did my education through distance education. Before the internet, I used to get books sent out from Leaderville so the overwhelming responsibility actually felt like it could consume me because I was so invested. It's my mob and having to balance. That has been a bit of a learning thing. I think it will always be, to be honest.
Speaker 2:It's enormous responsibility, one you're responsible for, obviously, family, being a single mum, having to make all the decisions, and then the buck stopping with you as a CEO. Sometimes I feel like I get decision fatigue. Can someone just decide what to do for dinner? Yeah, because I can't do it. Do you ever get that?
Speaker 4:way I'm saying. That's why I've trained my kids to be chefs, because that's one decision I'm trying to be smart in, I'm trying to make it more efficient. But I actually have a background of teaching chefs how to cook in a taff in Calgary for about seven years. So I'm in another lifetime. I would have loved to have been a chef, but I only did that for seven years. So I've trained my girls up. So when I get in I'm just going to make sure they've got the ingredients. So I'm glad I've done those lessons to them too, because when I come home they're making a feed for me.
Speaker 2:So and that's a good metaphor too. It's like you're trying to make sure that you know in metaphorically too, for them to succeed. You're like just making sure they've got all the ingredients.
Speaker 4:That's right. They can just get whatever they want get the cheese out and the eggs, so yeah, I'm glad I did that.
Speaker 2:So how do you, do you get to take time for yourself at all? I've raised pretty independent girls I used to.
Speaker 4:I had an intimate and they went to come to pick us up from the train and I've got a 16 year old and an 11 year old and they came to the train to get, pick us up and put us in the car. Both the girls had a backpack each. I had my own backpack. I taught my girls I kind of knew that, being an Aboriginal mum and I've got two Aboriginal girls in the world that the best thing I could do was, you know, make them strongly independent and to accept help and actually help but be independent. So they've been raised to literally, physically and spiritually, carry their own bags. So that's from like you, you know, and I've said that to luke when he had his baby going like, make sure your kids carry their own stuff when you go fairs or events or carmers, because they'll, they'll hold what they need, was one of the best advice I got when I was younger. So them kids will carry what they need. So, bella and Sophie, they're very independent. But I've also raised them not to be and they ask questions and always ask for help. When you don't know, you know and then others saying like if you don't ask questions, you don't know the answers, or I think they say you need to do something with the quote. So I'm always asking questions. I think there's a strength in that always telling people that I don't want to do it now.
Speaker 4:So the girls they're very independent. So a lot of the times they're standing a different way away from hanging out with them a bit too. Now they're 16, now I'm 11. They're like you're right, mum. So I've had to raise them like that because I knew I couldn't go out in the world, whatever I chose to do and earn a living, be a role model for them, fellas, because I'm big about you know, being that you can't see that they had to be some form of independence. The three of us couldn't survive in a way. So it came out of, probably you know, a self-defence mechanism of being a mum, a single mum, but it's worked really well out, yeah, so I'm very lucky. The girls are very independent, capable individuals. I think they can thrive far better than me now.
Speaker 2:That's so good and that's really the goal, isn't it, of being a parent is to raise your kids so that they don't need you, even though it's kind of like I don't need you anymore.
Speaker 4:People say that, but it's hard, that's the problem, but that's the best thing I can do for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean you're leading an alliance Like you threw out some stats this year and just the distance that you cover, the amount of ranges you have. Tell us more about that. Tell us how big the space is that you look after so like Desert Motors.
Speaker 4:We say desert as a whole but there's so many different areas in a different country but you know, know it covers such a big part of australia and everyone who is out there is working community and you know they came for their own country and collectively we all have cultural connections across that space.
Speaker 4:So when we say desert it covers, you know, our dissimilar areas of australia, which is the middle of australia, but also as a cultural connection that you know, as desert people we're very much connected. So everyone in a way is looking after their own country and community and as rangers doing their own work. But out in the desert we really know that we, you know we respect each other's boundaries but we also share work with each other. There's ranger exchanges and we just know that to connect each other and collaborate it just makes things you know, best practice in a way, culturally and environmentally. So it's a big patch. We say I don't know the stats off the top of my head again, but I did write it down. I don't know if Luke knows how much of the space we have in terms of desert what we'd cover.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's roughly 2.7 million square kilometres. Yeah, so one third of the continent is the arid area of the Australian.
Speaker 2:And how many people in total are looking after that amount of space?
Speaker 3:I think we're trying to do the sums. There's about 0.01% of the Australian population living and working in a desert country.
Speaker 4:And we don't employ rangers directly. We support the ranger teams and organisations. So there's quite a lot of members out there. We have 28 members now and that's a mixture of big land councils that have 14 teams, two sort of ranger teams in that patch, and our role as IDA is really big about facilitating them to do it the way they want, connecting them up, collaborating, and we have, you know, colleges and fire specialists to go out and support them in their country. So we really just want to be a rep or a wraparound organization support. But that's a big patch and you know there's a lot of them out there working really, really hard and really pushed, like I said, you know, in Melbourne that's only a little bit of people out there working after country and we do it because it's a traditional country, but so much more benefit for the rest of Australia and internationally and I think that's what we're really passionate about, because it gets forgotten that work that they're doing.
Speaker 2:And do those teams and communities get a chance to share that knowledge with mainstream Australia? I know that we're sharing the knowledge and practice between each other and the fact that it's so beneficial for everybody. Do you get chances to do that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, we get invited quite a lot, don't we, luke? In terms of supporting Rangers of Galilee, we were always so proud to tell the Yarns. Like you put a ranger on a stage, they'll talk about their country and how proud they are. They're so proud of it. But these are actually working people too. Like they're off country, travelling thousands of kilometres to go and tell a yarn in some conference or in government or something. They're actually stepping out of work, you know. So there's no glory seeking with Desert Rangers. They go into it because they're proud of their work. They want to highlight what we're doing. You know they want to advocate for their people. Yeah, so there's not a lot of opportunities because we're out in the country, but any opportunity we can, whenever we're invited or we try and create opportunities where they can go and talk. If they don't talk, then that's something like look who needs a comms and IDAs. Tell that story, share the story. What do you want us to tell the world? But we have to, because people won't know what we're doing. Then what range is?
Speaker 3:doing it there, my friend, our founding chair of the IDA. She's always said we need to put the desert on the map. Unfortunately, the desert does get forgotten sometimes.
Speaker 2:So having seen rangers out there telling the story, getting Australia in general to think about the heart of Australia yeah, absolutely Like when I listen to you, I just am intrigued by not just the country and the beauty, the mob living out there and the amount of knowledge that has been passed down but now is utilised just on an everyday way. And so you talked about I don't have a degree and all of those things, but I think, comparing, that in mainstream people have degrees and all of those things and if you've got that piece of paper that means something different to the mainstream world.
Speaker 2:But for us the experience on country and in community, and that knowledge and culture is probably the most important and most valuable thing that you can have. So talk a little bit about that. A hundred percent.
Speaker 4:And you know I've never been to university. You know I grew up most of my life in Laverton and Cosmo and when I moved to Perth, probably eight years ago, it was the biggest town I ever lived in in my life, so I had to get used to freeways and traffic jams and stuff. I've found there is a pressure from probably mainstream and even from other mob as well, to have an academic degree. And I know, know I don't, and it's a bit of a, you know, stubbornness about me as well. It was like you know, why should I? I think that you know I should be following whatever dreams I want, you know, and we need people who are able to really work in that world and really strong academic leaders. In that I'm just really busy, too busy to probably even think about starting a degree.
Speaker 4:But I do think in mainstream Australia there's still a big pressure about how many degrees you have. I've not been invited to things or groups or committees based on the fact that I don't have a degree or that I never went to a year 12 schooling. I mean that's quite, quite sad, you know, in terms of my role as a CEO, to still have doors closed for me in all that I've achieved based on not being able to get to university and have a degree. So I think that's something that's still a glass shield, it's something that we need to kind of look at in terms of what it means to be considered, I suppose, the word academic or the word highly educated, or maybe having a look at what that actually means in terms of qualifications. But that still is a barrier that I face in my world right now.
Speaker 4:You're in community, maybe just in mainstream, oh, never in community. You know I'm going back to Cosmo next week. My mob, me and the girl jump in the car driving 11 hours out to a community and I'll be sitting around that fire yawning up with my mob. It doesn't matter anything that I'm a CEO. I'm sitting on the ground with my people. They won't matter if I've got a double degree or not, but it does matter when you're in a government sitting, when you're in a university or when you're in a conference or something that that's such a big, big thing massively. And I've struggled with that, to be honest. But I know what my self-worth is and my value and I just think we just have to challenge what that means.
Speaker 4:And you know utmost respect for the time it takes for our people to get those degrees. It's hard and the sacrifice they have to do and that's the common thing at all. That's beautiful. We need that knowledge. You know it's all forms of knowledge. My only thing is making sure that not having that isn't a barrier for us to be around the table and we all need different types of knowledge around the table. All need different types of knowledge around the table.
Speaker 4:I'm a big person that you know my kind of thing about my lifetime goal is it's getting diversity around the table for our people, that we, you know we have the person that doesn't speak English, you know at the table that we have an old fella who's at the table, we have a young man at the table, that we have, you know, remote, regional, urban, country, aboriginal people around the table. That we have different schooling, that we have different cultural understandings and I think when that happens, that would be great, when that diversity happens, because I think it's a great mix of who we are as Australia. But sometimes it's hard to get to the table People like me and the people that I work with and support and connect.
Speaker 4:I'm really a remote mob especially desert mob and sometimes I say, well, we should be taking the table out there to desert mob, you know how about within the middle of Australia and bring everybody in. So that's a lifelong goal for me, you know, to kind of get that diversity and I've always been an advocate for desert people because of that, not only because we have really important things to add to the table, but because you know it adds to the richness of us as people in Australia, and I think that can be missed when desert mob are at the table.
Speaker 3:And you do write with the idea of two of the board meetings happening in different locations and the next one, I think, will be in Elm Springs.
Speaker 4:That's right. And then all of a sudden, you know the CEO will go up and zoom from that person's community office. You know the company secretary, she wants to go to Alice Springs and go to a community and sit with someone. So I just it's. I really like changing the rule a little bit and balancing it a little bit. Still, you know what we need to do, but trying to make it less work on the mob on the ground is what I'm trying to do, you know. So that requires a bit more thinking. You know there's times even Luke and I have said you know how do we can get this story out in a way, or collect this yarn in a way that has less impact for the people on the ground but gets across the message that we know needs to get out externally, but without the mob on the ground changing who they are. I mean, that requires some thinking out and, you know, some planning. I know I enjoy, and Luke enjoys, that aspect, but that's something I really love about my job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are some of the things you find in terms of challenges of different communities and ranger teams out on country? What are the biggest challenges that you're trying to problem solve or facilitate solutions for Funding?
Speaker 4:and advocacy the majority of the desert ranger teams and organisations out there. Things like philanthropy don't reach out sometimes as far there. There's not a lot of mining in the middle of different parts of the desert. You know there's different business opportunities but in some areas that capability of doing arts isn't going to cover a complete ranger team. So most of those groups are completely dependent on funding from government. So that puts them in a power dynamic that sometimes you know it's not equal for them. So we're always promoting for that, for funding for those groups to go out there and fund the work that they're doing and advocacy things like climate resilience and climate adaptation. A lot of times those decisions and policies and funding made towards climate resilience are done by people who aren't actually impacted by climate and so we always promote that.
Speaker 4:Desert Marble are some of the most impacted people in the world in terms of climate changes but we don't know that that's happening and the temperatures and the hard life and you know the feral animals and the threatened species being, you know, impacted. We all know the story about the Great Barrier Reef. You know I knew that in Cosmo, you know, like this is me, the nearest ocean was like eight hours one direction, and I was stressing out about Great Barrier Reef going. We're going to do something about that coral. You know, we don't quite know what it is, but we've got to look after it. So that's great advertising, you know.
Speaker 4:But people don't know that desert mob are living in harder and harder conditions than they have and it's getting worse and, ironically, because of things that they're not doing. You know all that impacts by city and damages impacts their day-to-day life in terms of living in a community and then working in a community, and we, as as a red rabbit people know we need to keep our mob on country wherever it is, so the harder it is to live out there. So, yeah, funding and advocacy. You need to have the people around the table whose lives are actually impacted by climate change at the table and helping to make those live time. You know, real suggestions about what's happening.
Speaker 2:Are there any plant species or animal species that rangers are trying really hard to either rejuvenate or sustain that have a greater impact on Australia as a whole?
Speaker 4:I think Luke's got his favourite little marsupial.
Speaker 3:The marsupial are really little animals, nice creatures. They're nice and they swim through the sand dunes. What yes.
Speaker 3:It's a golden little creature. Yeah, quite amazing. Every time a ranger captures a photo of a marsupial needle, it goes viral. Yeah, we were talking to the BBC and the New York Times last year and the ranger found one of these critters. Yeah, some of the most iconic animals in the world. Obviously, the booby, everyone knows great doesn't skink. The night parrot, which is a really immersive creature.
Speaker 3:A lot of the amazing creatures in the desert and the underground. You know they're burning, they live, they come out at night time, sort of like an ocean. You know, from from above doesn't look like much is going on, but when you look a bit closer and look underneath there's so much going on. The guy does it skiing sometimes because it's like all of them, because they have a communal toilet and they do put all their droppings in one spot and they leave as a family throughout their life. Yeah, like he's a tiny little lizard. I guess he put up my hand and said I was one of those white fellas that didn't know too much about the desert, say like five, ten years ago, did a few trips with rangers and just my whole world was turned upside down.
Speaker 3:I think the desert is the most beautiful place on the planet. There's trees, there's water, there's just beautiful wildflowers, and when you take the time to listen and look around, you know Indigenous rangers, elders, people that have lived there for generations. They show you things and help you. See it the way they do Again, it just brings another layer of appreciation for an Indigenous man like myself.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, like I, lot of science with climate change there are just threats, unfortunately. So we did the science a while ago. I think it was about 70 threatened species, probably much more that we don't know of. One of the biggest threats there was from feral cats, unfortunately. So we were dealing with feral cats camels, cats, foxes and then we're also dealing with the waves, that buffelgrass, which is sort of, unfortunately, a choking kind of wave that just kind of chokes out all the other planet's animals. So, yeah, we're dealing with some big stuff out there, but, yeah, rangers are out there every day doing what they can.
Speaker 3:Flies are the biggest tools we have to manage the desert. So you know, seeing these rangers all out there burning fire in a good way, the desert's going to be looked after and healthy and well, that's why I'm still here. So I really believe in that. I'm a huge advocate for the desert. I'm still here, so I really believe in that. I'm a huge advocate for the desert. A lot of people fly into Oru, which is important. It's a beautiful cultural place, but it's a big place. The desert, so many places you can go and communities you can meet and things you can do.
Speaker 4:I remember saying, even when I was talking to someone the other day over the phone and we were talking about how even in Australia we don't travel around Australia. You know like you can talk to anyone. You know my boy even known many of these people going. Oh, you know where have you travelled? And usually it sounds a little bit like you know Bali England went around to, you know Switzerland and Melbourne, but there's nothing else in between that and I think that's something that we, you know you've got to encourage that there's a beautiful country, the tourism part for Australia, like people come here because it is amazing and we've got a beautiful country and there's a beautiful mob out there and you know, everywhere, not just desert but everywhere. And I think you know encouraging the travelling around Australia helps to move that around.
Speaker 4:You know, and I think about the bilby. I remember the first time the bilby came out for Easter time, even like kids, community kids were like, oh, what's this animal going to do? They were going for a rabbit and so many kids had never seen a rabbit before. But it's come into the Australian. You know consciousness about this bilby. Now there's funds on it and I'm thinking well, maybe if we get the night power or that little crazy little marsupial model you know that's cruising around in the ocean, that sounds like a little comic book character. So I think, just as it becomes more mainstream, people will be more interested and understand a bit more about it. But there's so many cool things out there, so, yeah, sometimes it can be seen as not many people out there and not a lot of good things. It's like this flat Sahara, but completely different to that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:see, I grew up in the suburbs. So you talk about you being a white fella who knew nothing about the desert. Well, I'm a black woman who knows nothing about the desert. Even just the time I spent out there, I got to just hang out working in the back room.
Speaker 4:So I loved it.
Speaker 2:I loved it enough to. I know that we had the Thomases over the back fence so we used to go out. Yeah, there's one more being here Kangaroo hunting every Friday night.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had to stay back and do dampers with mum, but I wanted to be out with dad on the ute. I love that dampers with mum, but I always wanted to be out with dad on the year.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but that I think like I don't have a very good memory, but, um, that's like one of the only things that I can remember and it's because I think it's because it was so special and the feeling probably, you know, like the feeling of going out on country and you know I'm counting down the seconds, blatantly telling the team you know I'm gone, cosmo, no, now you know, unless this office is burning down, then you're welcome to send a message to the community office. With that reception. They can ring me on my phone, but I'll be like no, put a message in the community office if I've got to come back. But that's the thing that we're really big on and something that Luke and I have always talked about for a couple of years is making sure we've got rangers who are working really hard and the least we can do is advocate and tell the story really well for desert mobbing. Make sure if they want to say it, you know you can make the space for them, but there's only a little bit of us mob, desert mob for a lot of countries.
Speaker 4:So I'm a big believer that if we get more advocates and people that talk about the desert like you're going to go home and talk to your girls about and to your partner about this little animal. Talk to your girls about and to your partner about this little animal and you might be Googling with your kids on the land share but that creates another advocate for the desert. So it's like not a little bit of us mob in the desert and allies that are there with us that are very passionate and strong with us there as well. But if we can create more people that go, you know what? Let's check out the desert or let's hear what desert rangers are doing. That's what calling the animals out there that Australia has that we never knew existed. We just create more people that will. Just you know, aboriginal people are already a minority in this country, let alone desert mob in the most remote part of Australia.
Speaker 4:So we've got to you know, we know we've got to punch above our weight constantly. You know, If we get more people thinking about the desert, it just is an extra bonus point.
Speaker 2:every time I see so much value in being outside and hearing and smelling and listening and trying to understand what one the earth is telling you and what the birds are telling you and any of the animals around. So I don't know if you want to speak to that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I live in Fremantle Way, so the girls are always looking around for that nature, and it's something I do even with the other. I mean I live in Fremantle Way, so the girls are always looking around for that nature and it's something I do even with a lot of, you know, non-indigenous staff and a dirty cultural sort of way in Australia. And it's like connecting to nature is a good way that anyone can connect to what we're doing. You know, and I always say, even if it's in the city, you know, I always say things like when I do an icebreaker, it's like, you know, can you go around and see a place where you feel your spirit is like recharged or relaxed or energized? And for some people who are really busy, it's really hard for them to do straight away, but then they're like, oh well, you know, I go walking on a bush trek every day between work and the office while they're surfing. Well, you know, I go walking on a bush track every day between work and the office or I go surfing down, you know, a market river or do something and I'm like that's you engaging with, like the environment and nature, and you know, maybe you get to understand a little bit about that place, maybe know who the mob, first Nations mob there are, maybe you get to hear some stories about that little bit of place. Or maybe next time you walk back from the office to your house go a bit slower. You know, look, like you said, look around at the birds and all that, and I think that that's that. You know. Commonality that non-indigenous people can tap into is nature and everyone is exposed to it and I think sometimes for me, what I found in my time is that's a really great doorway to then understand culture. And for what I find with some people who and a lot of times, you know, I usually end up being the first, you know, black fella friend someone's had, and that's how I do it for them, you know saying well, everyone is immersed in nature in the city.
Speaker 4:Let's start on that, like, what do you feel when you're walking along to that office before you have lunch? Or when you and your family go to the same spot on the beach where there's the rocks and you go swimming, what are you feeling? And they're like oh, you're feeling really actually re-energised. Or with my kids and all that, because that's a, you know, a really important feeling Now to understand culture and the way we have, you know countries. Now imagine that you've been doing that for you know, over 60,000 years, and the moment that you're responsible for making sure that that feeling is still there. That feeling is there because the country's being cared for. You're slowly starting to accept or understand the impact of that weight of responsibility. Now don't get overwhelmed by that, but just make that small little change in your day. Go a bit slower between that office and that park for your lunch. Understand a bit about that park. I said you can go and find out if there's volunteer groups in that little park. Understand the traditional owners of that country. Understand some words and I tell you what. That little walk between that office and that building and home will now be 100 times better and more engaged and you'll respect their country more.
Speaker 4:And that's just maybe a walk between an office and your house and walking through a park, like that's a small scale, as non-Indigenous people that they can do and Indigenous people who want to connect in a way with where they are. I do that with the girls. We go down to Bribra Lake. We sit around the Coogee, we, you know, check around what's walking around. See little animals walking around.
Speaker 4:You know we try to understand what noongar mob that was living there at that time. You know what are the stories and I appreciate and respect that more because of that knowledge. It's that bit of effort you've got to give that effort. So what we found is the nature aspect is a really good, easy doorway for you know non-indigenous people to get into. Then you make sure that cultures in there understand that about country and I've found over my time I've been able to create more advocates that way. You know, bringing them that way because everyone can connect to nature and once you get them understanding and connect to nature, then you get them to culture and then I find that I've had longer lasting people who are advocates because of that process.
Speaker 2:That's the best advice that I've ever heard in the way that you just articulated it. Again, I'm sitting here going like God.
Speaker 4:Sam you're amazing and like connection. So a lot of people say they don't know what connection from mob is to country and they're not being disrespectful, you know, some are being racist, but the mob actually don't know what connection means as a fundamental being of who we are as Aboriginal people. You know, narelle, it's like I do that nature thing but then go, like I said, over thousands and thousands of years of that responsibility and that weight and that knowledge that is still here in Australia. Now, all of that, you whack that baton, that connection, that nature that you've just created, and that is the connection. All of that history, all of that history, all that ancestry, all that knowledge is what we carry around as aboriginal people and that will give you a small understanding of what connection is and why we're so passionate about as aboriginal people.
Speaker 4:Well, we need to advocate for it and you know allies who understand that and they get that and they respect the weight by which it is and they want to stand with us. They get it Like they get what we do, you know. But yeah, I think that's keep bringing them that way, you know, and it really helps. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I just think that there's a responsibility, too, that we've got to try to share this, and we just so that other people realise that there's a responsibility there to conserve the plant 100%.
Speaker 4:And you know there's two things that I've heard recently and that I always reflect on, like two examples Like with Kirikara mobs you know the most remote community in the world. You know they go a really proud way hunting cats because they know the damage that it does for community. And you know some are next and like, oh, but you know, surely you know you're not ever going to get rid of the cats and there's cats in the rest of Australia, outside, everywhere else, and the mob are just like, well, we're just worrying. You know we're trying to focus on what we can do in our country for now and celebrating the small wins and being really proud and we're doing our bit. And then, you know, add that to when I've gone to you know environmentalists and people who work in the space like volunteers. You know in Melbourne, you know that's the same story that has really resonated with me. You have that from love that are doing that. Then I've met you know this couple who have been looking after country in Melbourne for 40 years planting trees in Mary Creek in Melbourne and they've looked after this country for 40 years non-Indigenous people, and they said the same thing.
Speaker 4:It's like doing a little bit every time with focus and purpose and not being overwhelmed by the bigger picture. You know, there's some stats that have come out saying that when they've done their survey with Australia, as a general, people know that that's happening, that we need to do something. They're just so overwhelmed by how much to do that that actually stops them from doing anything. So if there's two examples of volunteers in Australia and not on the ground who are looking and doing the work, it's that mentality. And if we all individually focus, purpose, genuine commitment and do that small bit of changing the environment or looking after it or even also minimising the amount of impact on the environment that you're living in, is a positive.
Speaker 4:We just need to focus on that because I think everyone generally is really overwhelmed by you know what to do and I think that actually prevents, that makes an action. Then. So just, you know, focus on joining a volunteer group. You know, connect with First Nation Mob Caring for Country. Then collectively we can make a change and not get overwhelmed. And I think that always I keep that in mind. You know, mind when I get overwhelmed by that stuff as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm definitely a person that will get overwhelmed by the too muchness of an idea, so that's really good advice, I think.
Speaker 4:And I know Luke thinks quite heavily about this stuff as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean sort of how I found my way here was through climate activism.
Speaker 3:I spent a lot of time with young.
Speaker 3:My way here was, um, through climate activism, um, and I spent a lot of time with young indigenous first nations people, um, working with traditionalism, the territory, and you know games, you know big campaigns and um, and often mob wouldn't think about the words climate change.
Speaker 3:They were saying we're just protecting country, we're doing what we've always done, and I think there was something freeing in that for me personally to know that even if there was no climate change, mob would still be up there doing the same things they've done for thousands of years. And yeah, I guess for an indigenous person like myself, that's um, those are the biggest lessons in my journey so far um, and yeah, that's what that's just what I love about indigenous rangers especially is um, that they're so committed to that it's it's such a responsibility that they carry, but they also bring others like myself along too and yeah, there's a bit of irony with desert mob Like they're living their lives very, you know, in their own way, in other ways, very cultural practices and traditional ways, and they're keeping their things that they've been doing for years, for a long time.
Speaker 4:They are the most impacted by climate change. What's happening in the city is impacting communities more than it is in city. You know you might notice extra, you know temperature for electricity bill in Melbourne and Perth, but you go out to remote community and they've stayed the same, looking after country, the same gentle way and impacting. But they're dealing with higher temperatures, more electricity bills because of the temperatures. You know more of the fewer animals running amok, threatened species are dying because of you know the heat, the fires, extra stream flooding, you know all of that. So the irony that we as Desert Mob are impacted the most but actually probably in some ways are the most least people causing the damage.
Speaker 4:So it's not only that I need people to get across about what we're doing, it's also a selfish reason as well. You know that it's impacting the people that I care about the most. So, yeah, but just not getting overwhelmed is the thing. Everyone, all these rangers, are working hard every day, knowing that, how much control they have over destroying or getting rid of all the camels or getting rid of all the big rifle guns. We're going to have to look at how that works out and it's going to be hard. But they're focused on just doing what they do every day and contributing.
Speaker 4:And I think that's what we're going to do as a country is just contribute on the small things with focus and encourage a lot of people in Australia to love the environment, like really love the environment. And you know the best, one of the best things First Nation Women of Australia can do is teach other people to love the environment the way we love the environment. And you know it's like anything, people will vote on what they love. If they're distant from it they won't. So you know that's the goal should be making people love the environment I was just thinking about some of these Indigenous protected areas.
Speaker 3:They're two, three times the size of Tasmania, but just alone some of this country is huge. It's a massive area to be looking after, but yet they're out there every day and they're not overwhelmed by it.
Speaker 4:Yep, and you know, we see, like I always talk about at work, like the eternal goals, you know, like caring for country and connecting to community and caring for culture, we all do that as people. You know, in Australia and Ireland we're not doing it to an end point. You know Some of the most challenging terms of project funding. With the work we do, it's only's only. You know, three year cycles or what politicians are in, and all that for aboriginal people it's there is no end date. We see things in in a way where it's the elders before us and the mob coming behind us and that I just keep going until I don't go anymore and then my girls will pick up carrying that responsibility. And that's the aboriginal way, way of how we've passed on our knowledge as a country, you know. So there isn't an end date. In that sense it still continues.
Speaker 4:So you know, every time I go to a community ranger team, they've got the map on there like you're saying, massive country, and you might only have like 10 rangers in a month and you might have one car where you have to swap out ranges because you don't have enough money to go out there, but they'll just focus on one area. They'll go we're going to go do that little weed buffle there. We're going to go and make sure that that sacred side of that rock hole's got fence around it so them camels aren't destroying. Or they're going to protect those night parrot habitat areas and all the bull. We're going to put some fence around so the cats don't get them. And they're doing on this little bit of the map and you see this massive IPA map, but they're still doing it every day, like you know. And so there's an inspiration that people get from rangers in terms of the environment, cause it's just to focus on those projects, you know, focus on those small things and collectively as a nation, we can get better at it.
Speaker 3:Then, yeah, this will give you an insight into what Sam's like as a boss. He has eternal goals. I guess Sam asked me. I want you to write a communications plan and put a lot of work into it, and when she was reviewing it, one thing she picked up was Luke, these goals are good for communications, but I want you right up the top there to put the eternal goals of country, culture and community and think about that every day, even with what you're doing. And yeah, so you can get applied into everything that you do, even if you're sitting at a desk most of the day, like I am.
Speaker 3:And did you say you're funny on the way in as well, you are a little bit funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the third time catching up with you and I'm glad that we finally captured you to have a yarn, like you had me cracking up the first time you presented in.
Speaker 3:Melbourne. I thought I was just here to make Sam a cup of tea. Turns out I got in the microphone.
Speaker 2:And you're the first bloke to ever have graced the EverConnect podcast oh yeah, Thanks for having me. Congratulations, cheers. So you must be a good bloke, because that is trendy.
Speaker 4:You know, something I said to Luke the very first time and I think it was a good reflection, because we've got to bring our lives along, you know, and I told Luke I have to adopt him like a little brother mulling. You know, and you might regret it at times. I'm a big, you know, older desert sister. But something I've always said to Luke in the beginning is that you know you go on this journey with us more than with me and you're going to have to feel uncomfortable. Because if you don't feel uncomfortable with learning some new stuff about yourself, your place in the world and Aboriginal people, then that doesn't mean that means you're not shifting or you're not learning anything new. You know, think as adults we think we know what we already know and then we stay like that and any shifting of learning something new or churning in something new hold, especially when you're over 30, it should feel uncomfortable. And what I've said to Luke is that when that happens you're actually on the right thing. But naturally as human beings we go oh, oh, we're feeling uncomfortable. It mustn't be safe. But when you're learning like First Nations and work really deeply and intimately, you're going to have that. And then I always tease Luke saying you know, once you and he's come to have really intimate connections with more people in the desert space and in the workplace going, you're going to be stuck in a more wild, like you'll be wanting to check chairs and all that, but always make sure that the First Nations person checks the chair first and then you come along with the after and check the chair. You know, so you know, and that's that learning and Luke's very humble on that. And then you know he teaches me with.
Speaker 4:We never have to get a message out about IDA and Desert Mob and I'm a good yarner and that but we've always had very open-minded conversations and a trusting relationship where you know how do I go in and talk to politicians or how do we do that way, and it's never changing me at all, but Luke works with me and gives me guidance in terms of how to get the message across in a way that gets our point across, not changing who I am, but help me in that way, you know, and so that's really important to have those allies like that that don't dampen who you are but actually help you, elevate and shine more, and Luke does that really well and that requires humility on his part and learning, but also requires some vulnerability on my part to know that I don't know everything either.
Speaker 4:But he's going to help me and we work, going to work together to make sure that the voice that I have is strong, because I recognise from quite early on now there's a lot of places where I might like I said, the only woman, only Aboriginal person, only desert person in the room, and I recognise I could shout constantly all the time but I'd be exhausted. Or I can be smarter and be efficient with how I'm communicating and that's where something like Lucas Combs, manager, really works. Really make sure that there's only one voice that's in there, that's from DZ. Let's make sure it's really really clear and it cuts through. And that required me to have some vulnerability in learning as well.
Speaker 2:I think it's the greatest strength to be able to admit that you don't know everything when you lead. And I think it's the most important time to admit, too, that you don't know everything and that you're on a learning journey. But a demonstration of vulnerability in that learning and that journey is, I think, the best strength that anybody can ever have. So, yeah, I've got enormous admiration and love for you and I think you're doing an extraordinary job. You've just inspired the hell out of me.
Speaker 4:I always say to people that want to build upon their journey and I try, and you know I always want to support mob that want to connect to their country as well and people that are not indigenous, that want to love the environment more. And I always say, like you know, I say things like go and spend more time that place, but do things that our mob would have done, like go and have a picnic there with your girls, you know go and you know. Tell stories there, you know. Go on a date there with your partner, you know like go and like have a little snooze under the tree. You know like, live on there in a way, even though it's like maybe half a day, you know at that place and like over time it just builds more and you know, and that connection will just also help people in their own journey about who they are and it helps with that.
Speaker 4:But it's such a grounding thing and in a way you're building your own connection to that little place and it doesn't take much, you know. But time and that's what a lot of people don't have a lot of time of and I'm very conscious of that myself, I know when I haven't grounded myself, when I'm just busy, busy, busy and it's hard because it's never ending that stuff and you know being stressed and rushing around for meetings and all that stuff. So I have to build that bit more in, because that doesn't ground me as an Aboriginal woman when I don't do that. So I've got to work on that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Gosh, this has been so awesome talking to you, Like I mean, are we going to do this every week or what?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you two should do a podcast every week, Like I don't need to be in it.
Speaker 2:I reckon if you just sit there and you're like, I cannot tell you how much value I've gotten out of today. So, firstly, I'm going to be awake till three o'clock for the next two weeks because I'm going to be researching desert animals that barely anyone's ever seen Like. I just can't say enough how much I love and admire your work and you as a person, and I just think you're amazing. Thanks, narelle.
Speaker 4:You know, what you're doing in terms of connecting people across, like various places is amazing. Like you know, don't ever be hard on yourself with that connection stuff, because that's powerful. What you're doing from this table and you're sharing stories, which I think is such who we are, but you're putting it on a whole other you know level and people get to listen and in a way, you actually condense it in a way where, like, people can drive to work and listen to your yarns and other people's yarns and you've kind of like really, you know, streamlined it so get in. So, yeah, what you're doing is amazing in terms of connecting those stories and just telling people. You know what to say. Like, you made me feel really comfortable. Like I said this, my first podcast very nervous, very nervous I was at any time when there's a new media um, but you made me feel very comfortable and that's really important.
Speaker 4:Um, and, like me, the point there's usually a little. He tries if I'm very nervous, he tends to try to crack me up and have a laugh because I naturally calm myself. So these are like a little test run first, because I'm very nervous when I'm um new things like this. But you were really, you know. You know kind of made people feel safe, made me feel safe. So keep going and doing what you're doing and sharing that yarns and stories around, because there's a lot of mob that you know listen and connected in that. You know what you're working in and connect to that, and that's really important because, as women, like you know, we don't have those big avenues sometimes and it's harder. So, having a podcast where you can yarn while you're driving to go get woodies or pick up your kids, it's pretty good, pretty good. You make compact size yarns. I like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I make digestible yarns so that we can still do the dishes of both the kids. Well, for me anyway. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:I like that. No, that's great.
Speaker 2:I like to tune them out sometimes when they're whining, which has been happening quite a bit lately.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, and Luke, sam, you've well and truly adopted Luke, because I heard him talking like us just a little while like a couple of ways.
Speaker 5:Yeah, he drops in Luke. So yeah.
Speaker 4:I'm like, oh, he has been adopted, luke. It's great. He does it really well and, like you know, one of the things that I try to put it on. But I was thinking we've been hanging out too much because he's starting to sound like me. But yeah, put it back a little bit.
Speaker 2:That's when you know you've got a good comms person right there, yep, yep. And I have to shout out to Tess too. She wasn't able to be here, but she's just sensational.
Speaker 3:So shout out to Tess and thanks, luke, no worries, I think, some of the scenarios, as well as this code switching. That goes on, and I think it's needed to just be able to do a bit of that too, obviously, so, respect to all of you who do that every day. Yeah, awesome.
Speaker 4:Now I try and say you know, like us mob, we've got to for me to survive. I couldn't just have a professional line boundary. You know, the CEO, lindsay, who had the job before me, wanted a desert woman to take on this role or desert person. He had to be my big brother for us to work as people and he knew that. So there was no line that we had to do that. And Sam is Luke, you knew you had to be my little brother and get growled and whatever. But I also had to give compliments as well sometimes. That had to work for me to work and feel trusted. And it's that shifting Organisations have got to shift too in the middle for us as well Can't just always be a small bond on one side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's why we love Warren too. You've met Warren.
Speaker 4:I told Luke actually I said, narelle's got one too.
Speaker 2:He was a little bit older, he was a little bit older, huh.
Speaker 4:I said but he'll, like you Like, follow them to go around together. I said yeah, he got one. She got one too.
Speaker 3:One of the highlights of my career so far was at an event with Sam, and I think I was there literally to make the tea for her, and then, anyway, she came back holding a cup of coffee for me and then just seeing her realise what had happened.
Speaker 1:I'm making you a cup of tea. I don't think you ever made me a cup of tea.
Speaker 4:So, on a last note, I always like to ask what's your best piece of advice that you could give this is as much for me is having a laugh like. I think I try really hard to have a laugh like, even if it's thinking about having a laugh, I think we, you know, when you think about all us sister girls together, family, and we're laughing and that, and I think, capture a little bit of that. So I'm always trying to make people laugh, to make myself laugh. I think I read one time someone said if you even fake laugh, you know the brain starts tricking that you're laughing. And once I heard that as a kid I was trying to test it like you know, correct jokes and all that. And then like fake laugh, and then I mean looking in the mirror while I'm laughing as a kid wasn't the right trick that they're talking about, but having a laugh now and then and being kind on ourselves. Like you know, we are achieving so much, so much, and I think we can be incredibly. And then there's there's so much, you know women are working so hard that in a weird way we are challenging each other to go like harder again, because there's so much of us that are doing some wonderful stuff with quite a lot of workload in there. So I think you know taking it easy on each other a bit more and you know taking it easy on ourselves and just having a laugh, like for me, that's a big thing.
Speaker 4:I actively aim to try and have a laugh a day and it sounds silly, but I even make if I get a laugh and my girls are incredibly funny comedians.
Speaker 4:So if I don't, if I see them at the end of the day I'm not guaranteed, because they're very cheeky, they're ten times funnier than me, so you can imagine how well I was laughing at that. But if I don't see them, I am genuinely looking for funny things like cat videos and YouTube and all that because I'm aiming for a laugh each day and I just think that's part of the thing. We work so hard, we give so much, we sacrifice, we do so much, but having a laugh or making that little moment of laughter, it really helps in so many reasons and I think that's something. Yeah, so I mean I could roll. I don't know any really inspirational words in there, but I think it's simply that that's kept me, you know, sane going. My mum actually knows that that's indicated If I'm not laughing or yawning or having a feed. That's usually something that's not right, so yeah, but laughing is big on there, that's usually something that's not right, so yeah, the laughing's big on there.
Speaker 2:There's something truly breathtaking about our deserts Vast, powerful, a lot of old stories and species found nowhere else on earth. It's a beauty that's so hard to describe until you've actually stood in it and felt it and breathed it in. But that beauty doesn't protect itself. The work the Indigenous Desert Alliance is doing to care for those landscapes is not only vital, it's extraordinary. It's grounded in generations of cultural knowledge, scientific skill and a deep responsibility to country. Now, if you've ever been moved by the magic of the desert, or even just curious about what's out there, this is your invitation to learn more and stand alongside the people protecting it.
Speaker 3:It's work worth backing and it's country worth fighting for.
Speaker 2:So get involved. Now is the time.
Speaker 5:Hey guys, thanks for listening. Wildfire is about sparking meaningful conversations that matter to Ember Connect's members and allies. This podcast creates a space to amplify voices, share stories and explore topics that drive change, connection and personal and professional growth. By bringing these conversations to life, we aim to inspire action, deepen understanding and strengthen the collective impact of the Ember Connect network. A huge thanks to our guests for sharing their knowledge, insights, time and passion with us and to find
